Less Glove More Fist

If you were a coach, how would you figure out your own macros?

November 11, 2022 Coaches Bronson and Natalie Season 1 Episode 9
Less Glove More Fist
If you were a coach, how would you figure out your own macros?
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we discuss the futility of following a generic template of macro ratios that a million other people are following vs. a method that allows for your individual situation and needs to be met.

There is a difference between following a protocol and using a method.

This is what it means to be context driven.

2:15 The basics are simple and will get you a long way
8:50 Examples of the types of people we work with
14:41 Defining adequate protein for an obese and unhealthy person
18:30 You can't afford to trivialize protein
22:05 How to use your Protein and Energy thresholds
24:48 What does "High Fat" mean?
29:20 Start where you are and work into the "ideal"
36:20 Methods over protocols based on your results
43:45 Fitness for the metabolically unhealthy and obese person
48:58 Your brain and Central Nervous System need physical activity
53:03 Coaching the lean, athletic person 
58:20 Recovery is usually the sticking point
1:00:45 You need body fat for sport performance
1:06:20 How much protein is too much?
1:12:25 Muscle mass creates the look of fitness, not low body fat
1:16:00 Step-by-step macro adjustments

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Coach Nat:

Welcome to the Left Glove morphist Podcast.

Coach Bronson:

With me, Coach Bronson, and me, Coach Nat, where we peel back the curtains and reveal the truth behind Hot Topics in health and fitness.

Coach Nat:

This is Keto fit life unfiltered.

Coach Bronson:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Les Glove Morph Fist podcast. This is Coach Bronson and Coach Annette. And today we are going to give you some practical information about how to look at your current situation and point you in the direction of what you should be doing for your macros and how you should be looking at your.

Coach Nat:

Nutrition solution so you never need another cookie cutter Keto program we can get to try to fit yourself into the box of somebody else's protocol or method.

Coach Bronson:

Right. We want to get you you guys have heard us talk before. It's all about context. So we're going to go through some scenarios and give you some very specific context applications, whatever we're going to give you. Basically, we have three we have three.

Coach Nat:

Example points pulling back the curtain to show you how we as coaches that work with individuals, individualize, how we work with those people. So how we take a person, we assess their situation, and then we give.

Coach Bronson:

Them very specific, personalized yeah, two reasons, I think, and you tell me if I'm wrong. Two reasons we want to do this. One, we want you guys listening to understand how you may fit into one of these and give you a kind of a pointer, like I said, in where you might want to start looking at your own solution.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Secondly, and I think more importantly, is we really want you to understand how freaking complicated this can be for a coach to help you find the specifics. The idea of what we're doing from a nutrition perspective is simple. Eat clean food, donate ****, get your protein, fuel yourself appropriately based on it. That's the basics. Okay. There are some specific things. Though. That if you don't understand and you're not aware of or you don't know. Some of the information that we know as coaches who are trained and have years of experience doing this.

Coach Nat:

How to apply that stuff for you.

Coach Bronson:

Specifically because you're going to get to a point. The basics will get you started. And it will get you a very long way down the road. There will be a time where you stop, you stall, you have a plateau, you get stuck, and you need to know how to make changes and what those changes need to be. And that's what we're going to talk about.

Coach Nat:

I think it was our first episode where we dove into context and why everyone doesn't need to be doing 80 20 and why everyone doesn't need to be doing PSMF. And this episode is your Bible right now to tell you the how.

Coach Bronson:

Right.

Coach Nat:

How do you figure it out?

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, how do we figure that stuff up? Okay, so you said 80 20. We said PSMF. Some other things that people do with their nutrition lifestyle that they think is just when you do keto, when you do carnivore, this is what everybody does. Intermittent fasting.

Coach Nat:

Oh, yeah.

Coach Bronson:

Intuitive eating. Eat to your full.

Coach Nat:

And not just intuitive and not just intermittent fasting. Extended fasting.

Coach Bronson:

Extended fasting. OMAD.

Coach Nat:

Oh my gosh, yes.

Coach Bronson:

And then there's the intuitive thing, eat to your full. If you're not hungry, don't eat. That gets into what we could have.

Coach Nat:

Probably all episodes not doing anything for fitness until you've lost the weight. So there's the only needing to focus on nutrition. You only need to worry about nutrition. Don't move your body. Bronson is having an aneurysm right now.

Coach Bronson:

Not a topic we will talk about on this episode. I am fired up about that one right now.

Coach Nat:

We can touch on it. I think we are touching on the fitness side of thing, what we recommend for people in specific situations for nutrition and fitness.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, we're focusing mostly on nutrition today, but we will talk about some fitness aspects as far as maybe just some ideas on where you should be depending.

Coach Nat:

On where you're coming from. Right?

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, we did put some stuff in there.

Coach Nat:

We put both exercise and nutrition.

Coach Bronson:

We actually have notes for this one today, guys.

Coach Nat:

Yes. So hopefully we won't be all over the place trying to keep ourselves from diving down rabbit hole.

Coach Bronson:

Rabbit holes too much. Okay, so basically what we're looking at is for the technical terms. So this just a little background, the idea for this topic.

Coach Nat:

Because I know where he's going.

Coach Bronson:

So I'm going to read to you the notes. Is this verbatim for what you gave me?

Coach Nat:

Yes, these are the notes he gave me about the topic he wanted to do.

Coach Bronson: This was at 12:

30 A.m., and then.

Coach Nat:

You can wonder why.

Coach Bronson:

Something like we were going to bed. I'm laying in bed, I couldn't get to sleep.

Coach Nat:

No, you know what it was? You were in the middle of a migraine.

Coach Bronson:

Oh, that's right, that's right. Coming back from BJJ or BJJ something. And I'm laying on the bed, the lights are out.

Coach Nat:

He calls me into the room. He's like, hey, can you come in here for a minute? I'm like, what does he need? He's got a migraine. He probably needs something, right?

Coach Bronson:

He's like, I so bad.

Coach Nat:

Can you take notes? I was like, you've got to be kidding me right now in the middle of a migraine. You have ideas that you want me to capture?

Coach Bronson:

They never stop.

Coach Nat:

Not layman's terms either.

Coach Bronson:

Okay, so here's the idea that I had. She took this down. The progression and regression of nutrition protocols based on your journey and health condition. An explanation and discussion of the appropriateness of a nutrition protocol based on if someone is metabolically healthy or not, physically active or not, obese or not. And what are different applications of macros and health and where different applications of macros and health markers come into play. Some context to include nutritionists or trainers who talk about getting healthy without eliminating any food group. You don't have to stop eating carbs to lose weight. That was the thought.

Coach Nat:

I said, okay, you wrote it down.

Coach Bronson:

And then looked at me. It was like, okay, now tell me what that means.

Coach Nat:

Tell me what you want to talk about.

Coach Bronson:

Okay, so basically what that means, your understanding of what we're talking about.

Coach Nat:

Sure.

Coach Bronson:

She can summarize, by the way, FAM.

Coach Nat:

This is what I exist for.

Coach Bronson:

I take these how many times a day do I say, hey, babe, can you take some notes?

Coach Nat:

This and I translate bronson into human vernacular so that others can understand.

Coach Bronson:

Just so everybody understands a little bit of where that comes from. I'm not super smart. I've never been classically trained. I don't have a degree. I've never been to college. But I spent the last 25 years writing documentation. So I'm an It project manager. I've been a systems engineer. I have literally written probably hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation over the past 25 years. And not just regular documentation. Technical documentation, design system documentation, stuff for government contracts, things like that. So when I think about writing down what's in my head, it's always probably way more than it needs to be.

Coach Nat:

Formal language. Big words.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. So that's where that comes from.

Coach Nat:

I'm always like, okay, love, let's see how we can make this sound a little more normal.

Coach Bronson:

The normal people speak.

Coach Nat:

Okay, so basically what we're talking about is nutrition protocols, different ways of implementing this lifestyle, and how to know which one is appropriate for you, for where you're at on your journey.

Coach Bronson:

That's a much easier way of saying it.

Coach Nat:

Right. Makes so much more sense.

Coach Bronson:

All right, so in order to do that, do we want to do a quick run through of the three example people and go back to the first one and kind of start from scratch with that one?

Coach Nat:

Yeah, let's do that. We've broken it down into, like, three pretty large subgroups of the population that.

Coach Bronson:

We that should cover up easily.

Coach Nat:

Categorize.

Coach Bronson:

Obviously, we don't have the time to do every scenario we've ever run across.

Coach Nat:

There are many different nuances, but when.

Coach Bronson:

We get into the details, we might be able to touch on.

Coach Nat:

Absolutely.

Coach Bronson:

Some of that would apply.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

Okay, so the first person that we have, the first hypothetical person we have is somebody who is in their 50s or their fifty S. Forty S. Fifty S. Sixty S. They are sedentary. They are not metabolically healthy. That could mean diabetes. Diabetes.

Coach Nat:

Diabetes.

Coach Bronson:

Diabetes. The diabetes, hypertension. They could have, who knows, autoimmune. They could have a bunch of different issues. And we said they're sedentary, so they're not really working out anything like that. That's the first one.

Coach Nat:

Typically, this is also coming with obesity. A lot of times, correct?

Coach Bronson:

Yes. And it could be obesity. Could be anywhere from £20 to £250.

Coach Nat:

Kind of an umbrella would be like an insulin resistant person, right. Which is usually going to lead to hypertension, diabetes. Right.

Coach Bronson:

Got you. Okay, what's the second person?

Coach Nat:

Second person is our lean folks, our lead athletic types. This is men or women who are in a low body fat range. No metabolic issues, pretty active in their everyday life, active in sports or already been training for a long time. Not necessarily resistance training. This could be some of our cardio people, people who are looking to gain muscle and improve their fitness or performance in their training.

Coach Bronson:

Most of the goals are more about fitness than they are about body composition in general. Or losing weight. Right.

Coach Nat:

Or they're seeking improved body composition through putting on putting on weight.

Coach Bronson:

Muscle. Right. So that could be even someone who's bodybuilding or just I've lost a lot of weight. I'm now lean, but I don't have the shape I'm looking for. I'm looking better in a bikini.

Coach Nat:

This includes all of our hard gainers men and women who've always been on the smaller side and want to put on healthy weight.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. And then the third class of hypothetical person we have is women specifically, because men don't have to deal with menopause, at least not first person.

Coach Nat:

Women going through the change perry into post menopause, post menopause.

Coach Bronson:

So that's what, the 40, 45, 50 plus range, right. And then in a lot of cases, what we see there is the side of the obesity where they fall into the other category, where they already had issues of metabolic health and metabolic syndrome. But then there's also the class, which we're going to tie into this specific scenario for these women. They're the skinny fat, so they're not overweight per se. If you looked at them walking down the street, you wouldn't think that they were obese.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

But their body fat percentage is way higher than it should be compared to their lean mass. They're obese. They're just not big and obese.

Coach Nat:

And I would say a lot of these ladies, whether they're on the smaller side or the larger side, you're either overweight or let's say underweight but over fat. Right.

Coach Bronson:

Underweight but over fat.

Coach Nat:

What we see is that typically at this time, perimenopause into the beginnings of menopause putting on weight, putting on body fat at a faster rate than they were prior.

Coach Bronson:

And then all the other symptoms right there's, the hot flashes, fatigue oh, yeah, fatigue.

Coach Nat:

And all the other any of the symptoms that come with the night sweats, all of that.

Coach Bronson:

All right, so those are the three, I guess you could say, templates of individuals that we're kind of looking at. So basically what we're going to do, we're going to talk about how we would approach each one from a nutrition perspective. Maybe we'll talk about the fitness side and what we would recommend from a fitness perspective as well. And then if there's any nuances or other things, we'll say, hey, just kind of the base how we would look at this. And then maybe there's some things that we did within that.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Because again, I want you guys to understand that as coaches, when we're trying to be specific and individual to you, there's a reason why we ask you.

Coach Nat:

A million, oh so many questions at the beginning.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. Everything about your life plays into this. So we may have a specific macro template and say, here's your basic workout routine for your scenario. But if you are a night shift worker, that could completely change that workout routine or what we have in that workout routine, or how often we have you working out if you're doing certain things, if you have an allergy to something I can't eat, x, Y, or Z, I have a histamine intolerance. There's all sorts of these things that can come into play that can change how we actually help you apply the ideas that we're looking at.

Coach Nat:

Absolutely.

Coach Bronson:

Okay, so what is the recommendation? Let's talk about the sedentary overweight middleaged person who's got metabolic syndrome. And they're just trying to most of them come to us initially saying, I want to lose fat, but we know that there's also I want to get off medication. I need to be able to move around my house without help. I want to play with my grandkids, whatever those different reasons are joint and pain.

Coach Nat:

Joint pain, moving around, I can't put.

Coach Bronson:

My own socks on, whatever. What are the macro recommendations that we would start somebody like that?

Coach Nat:

Well, okay, here's the underpinning of how we would handle it with all the groups.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. Yeah. Good call.

Coach Nat:

There is a term that we would use for all of the groups, and that is first and foremost, adequate protein.

Coach Bronson:

Adequate protein.

Coach Nat:

Now, what that means for each of the different groups would be a little bit different. So when we say adequate protein, what do we mean when we're talking about this particular individual?

Coach Bronson:

Yes. So when we say adequate protein for this individual, we're saying they need enough protein to allow their body to repair and recover. And assuming that we're going to be introducing some physical activity that that recovery includes recovering from the physical activity that they're doing.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. The balance is when somebody is insulin resistant and their pancreas is shot and their liver is not working properly and all these things are wrong, they're going to have an increase in blood glucose from protein. And now that's not a bad thing. People freak out, oh my God, if I'm eating protein. Okay, number one, this is where we.

Coach Nat:

See the 80 20 crop up.

Coach Bronson:

Correct. This is where we see the 80 20 crop up because we don't want.

Coach Nat:

So afraid of gluconeogenesis.

Coach Bronson:

We don't want protein to freak out your blood sugar. Here's the deal. Sorry. The rise in blood glucose from protein is nowhere near right. So what you got when you had acharbs. So think about it this way. If I'm taking out 100 grams of 100 millimoles, whatever measurement you want to use, if I'm taking out 100 blood sugar from the carbs and I'm putting in 20 from protein, I am net 80.

Coach Nat:

It's a lower than I would be yes. Of where you were with the car.

Coach Bronson:

It's still better than any of that stuff, especially if you're also increasing your physical activity and you're building muscle and you're doing all these other things, your body is going to be able to handle that extra 20.

Coach Nat:

This is how we improve better than.

Coach Bronson:

It was 80 before when you were sitting on your butt. Right. One of the things I want you guys to understand is the concept of net positive. Net negative. It's a huge, huge, huge concept that you have to understand. You cannot look at every single option on the table, and if that one option is bad, completely throw it out.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Other options. And Coach Nat likes to use the term low hanging fruit. So when we talk about what are the changes you want to make and how are we going to decide what goes first, what is the one thing that's going to make the biggest net positive absolutely.

Coach Nat:

In your life and cause the least amount of additional stress?

Coach Bronson:

And that's on your schedule and your family, on yourself, on your body, your mental, your emotional. So that negative concept applies on a whole bunch of different levels.

Coach Nat:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

So when we talk about protein for this person, they need enough protein. Now, here's the deal. I love Dr. Layman. His quote, when we listen to that video with Dr. Et, was interviewing him. If you're not familiar with Dr. Lehman, look him up. He's dr. Gabriel Lyons. Mentor. He's like one of the OG when it comes to protein, protein metabolism. He is the guy. And his statement about protein intake is, protein is not a percentage. Protein is not a ratio. Protein is a fixed number. It doesn't change.

Coach Nat:

It's a necessity.

Coach Bronson:

Your body needs protein and it needs enough protein to keep your metabolism functioning. Okay, so here's the deal, guys. This is what drives me crazy with the 80 20 concept and trying to fix people into a fat amount, not a protein amount, right? Your body runs and is managed by protein.

Coach Nat:

Amino acids literally are the building blocks, if you've ever heard that. Protein is the building blocks. Amino acids are what your body needs and uses to literally build everything that you are made of.

Coach Bronson:

Protein is the gears that make everything happen in your body. So all of the functions, think about all of the functions in your body. The hormone function and your heart working and your lungs working, and your cardiovascular system and your muscles functioning. All of that stuff is because of amino acids, the fuel that we eat provides the energy for those things to happen. So when we focus on the energy, we're completely the amino acid missing the raw material. It's the raw material.

Coach Nat:

Bronson loves the car analogy all the time, right? It's like gas would be useless if.

Coach Bronson:

Our engine was cracked.

Coach Nat:

If there was no car.

Coach Bronson:

That's even better.

Coach Nat:

I mean, those literal materials that are used to put the physical car together that holds the gas would not be there if there were no amino acids.

Coach Bronson:

100%. I love that gas is useless if.

Coach Nat:

There'S no be putting fat in nothing. There would be no matter.

Coach Bronson:

Right? Exactly.

Coach Nat:

No human body to put that into.

Coach Bronson:

So the avoidance of protein, I don't care how metabolically sick you are, you need protein.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

Period.

Coach Nat:

He paused on he gave me a little look like somebody's not going to be happy with me.

Coach Bronson:

And here's the deal. The focus on fixing your mitochondria by giving it a lot of fat, I can understand at an initial point, and this is where we can talk about this person. If this person that we're talking about, this overweight sedentary, doesn't work out, has a lot of metabolic syndrome, their starting point that we're going to talk about, we start everybody, for the most part, because here's another we got to get into concepts before we get into specifics. Here's another concept, lady Groundwork. It's not just the adequate protein, but it's also understanding that thresholds and the process of making adjustments. So you have to start somewhere. No matter who you are in this scenario, you have to start somewhere. So we have an energy threshold and we have a protein threshold. And basically, when we're talking about protein, what is the minimum amount for this person? I would say what is the minimum amount of protein that they can take in but still see an improvement in skeletal muscle mass?

Coach Nat:

Minimum effective dose.

Coach Bronson:

Minimum effective dose of protein so that we can manage. Yes. They're maintaining their metabolism. Yes. They're still getting the benefit of getting.

Coach Nat:

What they need to thrive and improve, not just survive. Right? Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. I don't want anybody who's healing to just survive. The idea is to get better. So you need more protein to get better. So we want to find that amount of protein. How much do they need? Track it over a couple of weeks. Are they gaining lean mass? Is their activity getting better? Do they feel like they're getting stronger in their workouts or whatever? Or feeling better in their workouts, whatever it is. Okay, we know that's probably a good amount of protein, but it doesn't need to be super high.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Because their goal isn't like gaining a pound of muscle.

Coach Nat:

Every person does not need to eat protein like a bodybuilder.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. And their fat can be adequate as well. It doesn't need to be super high. So here's another thing. When we talk about an energy threshold. You want to explain energy threshold.

Coach Nat:

That's your jam. You have pretty much coined at the target.

Coach Bronson:

So when it comes to our protein threshold, we're looking for the bottom. Where is the bottom of the barrel that you need the minimum effective dose to give your body the metabolic maintenance and growth that it needs to survive and thrive? It doesn't have to be super crazy. We're not looking for big gains. We're looking for maintenance, essentially. So that's what this person is looking for. On the fuel side, we're looking for what are the goals? Let's talk about that first. The goal is to help this person lose body fat. That's one of the things I want to reduce inflammation, reduce insulin resistance, help them access the body fat that's on their body more efficiently and more cleanly. So we want to get them fat adapted. That's where the initial increase in fat intake can be helpful. Yes, getting your body used to burning fat. Once you are adapted and your body is used to burning fat, we have to we have to stop eating all the fat.

Coach Nat:

Yup.

Coach Bronson:

Because your liver will never get good at making its own ketones. If you keep shoving ketones in your face, you have to cut back on the fat at some point.

Coach Nat:

I would actually take a step back and say for all of our categories, if you are just starting a ketogenic diet, you've eaten standard American diet your entire life. High carb, probably high carb and high fat, to be quite frank, although maybe over the last 30 years with the food guide, lower fat. But you're going to need to start higher fat. It's going to be beneficial to start higher fat. You're trying to train your body to seek out fat as the energy source, as opposed to seeking out sugar in that transition can be very difficult for someone who's never been low carb, not even low carb before. Just going straight from high carb, standard American diet. So that can be tricky and that can be difficult to manage through that transition. So this is where jacking up the fat at the beginning can really help there because it's going to make you feel better. It's going to ease that transition. It's going to give you plenty of fat, excess. But this is excess fat to work with. So if you are obese and you are insulin resistant and you're struggling with and fat loss is your main goal, then adding excess fat will not work. This is what Bronson is saying. It will not work long term.

Coach Bronson:

Well, this is where we get into the whole fat doesn't make you fat. Right.

Coach Nat:

Let's go.

Coach Bronson:

What does high fat even mean?

Coach Nat:

Oh, my gosh. That is my biggest one of my biggest pet peeves is this whole, oh, you're high protein, you're high fat. What does that even mean?

Coach Bronson:

Right?

Coach Nat:

Two completely different things to two different people.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. So the scenario that we're looking at, this person, we didn't say it, but we're assuming this person is coming from standard American, they're just starting keto, whatever. I need to change everything up. My doctor told me I'm going to die, whatever. So they're used to eating 200, 300, 400, 500 grams of carbs a day and probably are lower fat because they've been told fat is going to kill them. So they're trying to do everything low fat milk, low fat this, low fat that. So 5100 grams of fat to them might be a lot. So when we come in and we say, we want you to start at 1 gram of fat per pound of lean mass, and they go, you want me to eat 160 grams on Saturday?

Coach Nat:

Let's back up, because first of all, to someone in this situation, lean body mis masses, a foreign concept go away. So the first thing that we do, and we both use this as pretty much the template, and then we work from there, is 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass. We start there, everybody across the board starts there, and then we find your optimal place, which is what he's talking about when he talks about threshold. So for this individual, lean body mass is going to be difficult to calculate unless this person knows what their body fat percentage is, which a lot of people in this scenario don't know.

Coach Bronson:

And for us, though, if you're working with us, we're going to get you some kind of body scan. That's part of the process. So I think I'm assuming that as.

Coach Nat:

A coach, we would figure that out. But this is also why you hear out there in the space, okay, either £1 of protein per 1 gram of protein, that would be a lot pound.

Coach Bronson:

Of protein.

Coach Nat:

A gram of protein per pound of lean body mass, or your ideal weight, right? We hear that a lot. Because even if you're underweight, that'll apply when we get to that traffic lane.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. So that's the way to do it as well. If you don't know your lean body.

Coach Nat:

Mass, you can start by ballparking. Well, what do I think is my goal weight?

Coach Bronson:

Right? 100%. And that for a lot of people is going to be more fat than they're used to eating.

Coach Nat:

Well, wait a minute, we didn't even make that transition yet. So I was just talking about the protein piece, but what he's talking about is generally starting with a one to one. So after we do the protein, we figure out 1 gram/lb body mass, we start the fat at one to 1 gram for gram protein to fat.

Coach Bronson:

So if they match and you go to somebody and say, hey, if your number is 150, they could look at you like, you want me to eat 150 grams of fat every day? That's high for them. If you look at it compared to the ratios that everybody loves using, which are worthless. Okay? It may be 80%, it may be 30%, it may be 60% of their total caloric intake. The percentage doesn't matter to them. It's high because it's more than they've done before, right? So they're thinking this is a high fat diet plan. This is a high fat way to eat for somebody who's been keto for a while and they know what they're doing and they've been doing it. They want to go high fat to them. High fat, maybe 250 grams of fat. That's a whole different relative. It's a completely different thing. So the idea of this is high fat, this is low fat, this is.

Coach Nat:

High protein, this is context. It doesn't stop just using terms like that. Doesn't help anyone.

Coach Bronson:

Doesn't help anybody because nobody knows what freaking mean. We're way talking about it. What do you mean?

Coach Nat:

But the main thing we want to get across here about this individual is that they will start higher fat than what they're familiar with.

Coach Bronson:

Correct.

Coach Nat:

If they're new to keto.

Coach Bronson:

And they may even go up as we find the threshold. So this is where the energy threshold comes in of giving them as much fat over a period of time. Now we're talking about titrating up. We're not talking about we're going to start you at one to one, and then the next week you're going to add 20 grams of fat.

Coach Nat:

Well, and this is another really important distinction to make between joining something online where it's somebody's protocol and all of us. It doesn't matter what you've been doing up until this point. Now you're going to do these exact numbers that this protocol says to do. This could be five times as much food as you've been eating.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah.

Coach Nat:

This could be five times as many calories as you've been consuming.

Coach Bronson:

Or way less protein. Way more protein or way less fat. Or way more fat. I have people that when they come into my challenge and I tell them, I want you to eat 1 gram of protein per pound of lean mass. They look at me and they're like, holy ****, there's no way that's going to happen. And I tell them, okay, just try to do five extra grams a week, an extra half an ounce, an extra ounce per meal, and over time, it's not going to happen overnight. We want to get you there, but you got to work yourself into it.

Coach Nat:

For me, I don't even just jump people to the one to one or the 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass. I first make them show me accurate data for at least a week.

Coach Bronson:

So I need to see where they're at.

Coach Nat:

I need to know where you are. And if you're not giving me that information, you don't get your macros from me until I get that information consistently, because I'm flying blind if I don't know what you've been doing. And. Particularly. I should also preface this by saying this first example that we're giving you, not typically the person that I work with, typically someone that I work with has been doing keto for quite some time. They've tried a bunch of different things they know how to track, and they're coming to me to figure out what's not working for them because it's not working. They're not getting the results they want.

Coach Bronson:

Very similar.

Coach Nat:

In that case, I need to assess what they've been doing before I can make any changes. But what I'm doing on the back end is just what Bronson explained to you. I'm going to calculate the 1 gram/lb of lean body mass. I'm going to calculate where I would put their fat and protein to start with, and I'm going to look at that in comparison to where they are.

Coach Bronson:

You know what I just realized, as you're saying that, I'm thinking about all my clients I've had over the past years, and if I were to look back, I would put money that nine out of ten of every client that I've had has not been eating enough protein and been eating too much fat. I'm thinking about just how the conversations go and the challenges the conversations go in my one on ones.

Coach Nat:

They're mostly coming to you from the.

Coach Bronson:

And we've talked about this on other episodes and things before. The people that I work with, most of them, like you said, I have been doing this for a while and are stuck. Yeah, they've been trying keto. I've been doing keto for three years. Why am I still £100 overweight? I've been doing keto for this long. Why am I still here? And nine times out of ten, it's probably higher than that, but nine times out of ten, it's not enough protein, not enough physical activity, and too much fat.

Coach Nat:

And that's a very common thing we see in the community. Honestly, that's probably the majority of the community. I'm in an interesting spot because I get a good blend of that or the exact opposite. Just a ton of protein and nowhere near enough.

Coach Bronson:

That because you have the ketogenic background. That's the other thing. The only other time I see that it's opposite is people who are not metabolically sick.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

And their whole thing is trying to improve performance. Anybody that's sick is in that thing where we've been doing high fat to get healthy. Fat doesn't make you fat. Okay, great. Now, well, I'm still kind of fat, and I'm still kind of not exactly 100% healthy, and I'm also weak and tired, and I still have these things, and I've been to keto, and it's not working, and why can't I make any progress? And I keep losing weight, and then I'm gaining weight, and it's been four years, and I feel like this isn't working.

Coach Nat:

Yes. And this is where the nuance comes in, because there's a couple of people in this first example, there's the person who's coming straight off of the standard American diet that we were talking about before and that is the person who's going to be totally new to these macros, totally new to this way of eating. That one to one is going to be a really great place to start.

Coach Bronson:

Them with and it's going to last a little while.

Coach Nat:

They probably also are not very familiar with tracking macros so we're going to have to give them a lot of support in how to figure out how to put meals together that even looks like what we're talking about. So that's one side of the coin. The other side of the coin is the exact same person, only they've been doing keto for a while. The person that Bronson just explained as majority of the people that come to him still sick. Still struggling to lose weight and to improve all these health markers and they've been doing insanely high fat like 80 20. Saying it's just everything is extra fat on top of everything and taking them to the one to one is going to be a shift. Quite a shift down on the fat from them. And really what I was trying to get out when I said I asked for the tracking first is if I notice that a person is coming to me and what the numbers I would give them are wildly different from what they've been doing, that's when I don't give them those numbers at all yet I give them a stepping stone. So the first macros I set for them are going to be closer to where I want them to be and then we slowly move toward that.

Coach Bronson:

Sure.

Coach Nat:

And that's usually the advice I give when I jump into groups and I'm chatting with people. Don't just I see it all the time in these groups. I was doing high protein, low fat, then I heard 80 20 is the thing to do so I just switched to that and this is what's happening. And I'm like, you just caused a major disruption to your body.

Coach Bronson:

Right?

Coach Nat:

Any diet change, guys, even if it's as small as taking one food out for an elimination protocol, is going to be a shock to your body because your body has been used to doing something and your body's main goal in life is to be in a homeostatic balance. So the minute that you jump into something brand new and totally change things and then you're wondering and you're getting into the chat groups about this symptom and that symptom and what's happening here and there, you just threw everything at this thing and now you don't know what variable may have been changing it. So we like to do a stepwise approach. We have our template, as we said, but then we're going to help that person go from wherever they are to where they really need to be in a sustainable way.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, the one thing, and I hope this is obviously clear, that makes the way we do stuff different from a lot of other systems is that it's.

Coach Nat:

Not a box you have to put yourself in.

Coach Bronson:

So these are the numbers you need to meet regardless.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

What we do is we have a starting point and then we work to make adjustments based on the results that you're having.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

You will not I guarantee you that by the time you're done working with us, what you're doing will look different than what you started with us.

Coach Nat:

Oh, absolutely.

Coach Bronson:

So there is no 90 days of do this, six months of do this, and that's the only thing.

Coach Nat:

You're right.

Coach Bronson:

It's going to change because guess what, guys? You are going to change. And it needs to change with you. It's the same thing with exercise. It's got to be progressive and it's got to be applicable. If it's not applicable to what you're doing, then why are you doing it? If it doesn't progress with your development, then it's not helping you develop. So the nutrition is the same one.

Coach Nat:

That's a really good way of putting it, I think.

Coach Bronson:

I think that's the difference that is our protocol is about finding what works, not following a number.

Coach Nat:

It's customized and it's personalized because we are all individuals and we don't just look at results, meaning the numbers. We look at biofeedback.

Coach Bronson:

I think the difference between what other people are doing not that I care, but what other people are doing and what we're doing is other people have a protocol. We have a method.

Coach Nat:

Okay.

Coach Bronson:

We have sets of things that we do on a regular basis to make sure that the guidelines are working and they're modifiable, they're flexible, they're changeable, they're adaptable. In a protocol that you do step one.

Coach Nat:

You do step two.

Coach Bronson:

You do step three. Whatever happens in step two almost doesn't matter because you have to do step three next either way. Right.

Coach Nat:

And what if you're experiencing what if you're struggling with it? You're experiencing things, symptoms, problems, you're in a box. There's no troubleshooting along the way to figure out how to make it more optimal for you.

Coach Bronson:

Right? Yeah. That's where the oversimplification of things, that's where calories in, calories out is wrong. It's oversimplified, and it gives you a box that you have to work in. There's no way to adjust it.

Coach Nat:

That may not work for you.

Coach Bronson:

All right.

Coach Nat:

Move on to our next person.

Coach Bronson:

Well, let's just make sure we have a good summary of this person. So sedentary over 50 metabolic disease for the version of this person who is new to new Takito. We're saying one to one protein, maybe a little bit less based on how they're responding to that. Now, here's the deal, just so everybody knows. 99 9% of the time, no matter what solution, what template of a person we're looking at, one to one protein works.

Coach Nat:

It's the starting place.

Coach Bronson:

I have never had a single person at any level of metabolic health who wasn't fine at onetoone.

Coach Nat:

Now, are you saying one to one? Are you saying the 1 gram/lb of lean mass?

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. 1 gram of pound for £1 of lean mass. So 1 gram of protein to £1 of lean mass is what I'm saying.

Coach Nat:

Got you. So one to one to one that we're talking about one to one.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, one to one, protein to lean.

Coach Nat:

Mass, protein to lean to protein to fat.

Coach Bronson:

I don't even like doing protein to fat. I like doing it all on lease.

Coach Nat:

Oh, okay.

Coach Bronson:

Because hopefully that changes. We're talking about where we're starting, right? But where we're starting is it's 1 gram of protein for £1 of E MAS and 1 gram of fat to £1 of meat mass.

Coach Nat:

Right?

Coach Bronson:

So because the fat and the protein are tied and they can change individually, I don't want to tie the protein to the fat in the ratio, because.

Coach Nat:

Then right, it's not a ratio guy when we're saying one to one, even if we're saying fat and protein, we're talking about grams.

Coach Bronson:

Correct.

Coach Nat:

That's a very important distinction to make, right?

Coach Bronson:

Because the grams may go up and the protein may go down. The fat may go up and the protein may go down or vice versa, based on the threshold and based on how someone is responding. And that's what this whole discussion is about, is moving them individually. So this person who's new, they're going to start at onetoone protein to lean mass, they may drop down a little bit if we can say, hey, maybe you're having some issues with blood sugar because of this, maybe drop it down. But we don't want to drop it down so much that they're not gaining.

Coach Nat:

Or maybe they're just stuffed. They're not used to. Because here's another thing. When you're coming from standard American diet and you have a lot of processed foods, and now you're going to a whole foods, real foods based approach, which.

Coach Bronson:

Is going to take some time to.

Coach Nat:

Get there, the way we approach it, you will be very full and especially increasing protein from what you're used to and fat in this case, you're going to be stuffed. And that's what we notice a lot of people with who first go keto in this scenario, this example, dropped a ton of water weight from getting the carbs out. But also they're eating a lot less than they used to because hyper, palatable packaged foods are much easier to eat in higher quantities. And then real food is just not as easy to eat in higher quantities because it's so much more satiated.

Coach Bronson:

So it takes time to get them to actually get to that one to one to one.

Coach Nat:

And that's why we see a lot of people doing OMAD, not because they heard about it, but just because they're like, I'm so full, I can't eat another meal today. So we'll work with that too. We work with all of the biofeedback. So if you're telling us, like, gosh, I just really couldn't shove another meal, and like, okay, let it go today, no big deal. And maybe we'll take down that protein a notch until they can digest that better, they can get through that better.

Coach Bronson:

Help them come up with some timing techniques or sizing their meals, preparations and all that. More salt always helps. Guys, in case you don't know, the more salt you put on your food, obviously don't over salt where you can't stand the taste. But if you can put as much salt as you can possibly stand and still enjoy your food, it will help you eat more food. Just period and enjoy your food. I've been carnivore for over four years, and there's not a single meal that I don't absolutely enjoy because of salt. Okay, so that's the first person. Do we talk about workouts for the first person?

Coach Nat:

Oh, wait, that's the new to keto person.

Coach Bronson:

And then the keto person has been doing keto for a while.

Coach Nat:

Usually we're going to drop their fats.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. Usually it's going to be the same thing, one to one protein. But your fats are going to come down. In most cases, you're overdoing the fat. Just getting you to one to one fat is going to be less fat than you're used to eating, and you're going to see some changes.

Coach Nat:

And it's likely that this person also has not been having enough protein.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Nat:

They're coming from that high fat, low protein ratio ratio.

Coach Bronson:

So for that person who's been doing ratios, just breaking them of the ratios. Okay. And again, it's all about adequate. You got to give your body what it needs.

Coach Nat:

Exercise.

Coach Bronson:

Exercise for this person. Sedentary overweight. What did we say? This person needs to be doing kind of full body complex movements, getting a combination of weight and metabolic conditioning every time they work out.

Coach Nat:

Now, explain to the people what you mean when you say metabolic conditioning.

Coach Bronson:

They need to get their heart rate up a little bit. They need to move in a way that makes them sweat and makes them breathe hard. Now, that doesn't mean they need to go try to do 100 burpees in ten minutes.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

For that person, it may be walking up and down the stairs three times.

Coach Nat:

Absolutely.

Coach Bronson:

And then they got to stop and go sit down and take a break. Yeah, that's perfectly fine. Do that one time a day, then do it two times a day, then do it three times a day, something. Right.

Coach Nat:

Really what we're getting at here is something that's challenging for your body.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Nat:

Which unfortunately, and I empathize with these people because, man, it's the hardest place to be. I get it. Like, it hurts to move. It hurts to do basic things. So this is where moving your body weight in daily activities is going to be a plus.

Coach Bronson:

Absolutely. If you can get to the point where you can just move your body around without worrying about, can I get back up? Can I do this? Can I do that? Do I need help with this?

Coach Nat:

It doesn't have to be complex, simple movements.

Coach Bronson:

You're getting to where you're basically just trying to develop your own physical freedom so that you don't have to rely on other people. You should be able to do everything you need to do with your body by yourself. That's your number one goal at this point. We're not trying to get you at the gym. We're not trying to get you super strong. No. Right. Just moving. Your body weight is the resistance that you need.

Coach Nat:

Air. Squats, holding onto the wall.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. Again, sitting up and down out of your chair. Getting up and down out of your couch. Get on the floor and sit on the floor. Then stand up from the floor, taking a 15 minutes walk, all that kind of stuff. So that's where you need to be. But if you're not sweating, if you're not a little bit out of breath, then you're not working hard enough. There you go. That doesn't mean panting. You can't barely breathe. You can't even talk. But you got to put yourself through a little bit of a challenge, because here's the deal. The metabolic performance doesn't come if you're not telling. It needs to happen.

Coach Nat:

There has to be a challenge.

Coach Bronson:

There has to be a challenge. So the idea here is, okay.

Coach Nat:

He'S got something he wants to say.

Coach Bronson:

The effect that you get in your mitochondrial health from eating extra fat is less. Here's two things about this. It's less than people think. Number one, because you're getting the benefit by cutting out the carbs more than by eating the fat. So cutting out the carbs is reducing the stress that is keeping your mitochondria from performing as much as it needs to. It's the carbs. It's not the fact that you're low fat. If you now cut out the carbs and then add more fat, so your body now starts to learn how to adapt, then, yes, there's going to be a performance. There performance boost. But here's the thing. That performance boost is only going to be as effective as the activity of the energy requirement you give it. So if I have mitochondria, their job is to make energy. If I never require my body to make energy, then I'm never making my mitochondria work better. So exercise gives your body the requirement to make more energy, so then your mitochondria can become better and more healthy. Right. Working out doesn't just work out your muscles. It works out your mitochondria. So the idea behind going high fat is, I want healthier, stronger, better reproductive mitochondria. Then you have to exercise. Okay, that's one thing. The second thing is, as you build lean mass, as you build muscle, guess what? Organ in our body has the most mitochondrial density muscle. So if you want healthy mitochondria and you want more of them to help you burn and utilize more energy, build muscle, I would say that the benefit of exercise and protein to build muscle is more beneficial than increasing your fat wow, shots fired. Because it's less about the fat that you're eating and more about the carbs that you're not eating and then optimizing how your body functions, which is what protein and exercise do, if any of that made sense. Does that make sense?

Coach Nat:

I was like, this is all him. But I know there's an audience out there that needs to hear that and is keyed into that. I'm like mitochondria. Mitochondria. But I will tell you this. It also improves your central nervous system 100%. Guys, if you're waiting to start exercising until you have less weight on your body, because once again, I get it. It hurts. It's not comfortable. Guess what? Later on, when you don't have as much weight on your body and you haven't built any core stability or balance or coordination, it is going to be just as difficult to do those movements, even though you don't have as much weight to carry around, because you never built the central nervous system. You never built that brain body connection. To learn how to move your body in these ways and to support your body in balance, coordination, agility, all of these things that you would learn by moving your body now. So do not wait to start moving until you're smaller 100%.

Coach Bronson:

And then the other part of that, which is, again, more nuanced, is your body moves differently at £300 than it does at £150. The way that your joints work, the range of motion you have, how you have to carry yourself and your center of gravity, and there's a bunch of things that go into how your body moves. So if you're not continually moving and keeping in touch with your central nervous system, in touch with the muscles and how you move while you're losing that weight after the fact is like you're starting from a whole yeah, well, it's.

Coach Nat:

Like not teaching a baby how to walk and saying, you know what? I'll wait until they're older. That's a great they have less baby fat, and then I'll teach them how to walk. It's going to be just more difficult at that point because the older we get the central nervous system, think about how quickly children can learn concepts and how much longer it takes us as an adult to do the same thing. Yeah, I couldn't go take a gymnastics class tomorrow and learn how to do backflips. Like, overnight, a kid would go to a gymnastics class and be flipping off.

Coach Bronson:

Of tables, and there's also less fear. Okay, so that's the first person. We just spent 50 minutes on the first person. We may have to make this a two part, but the first person.

Coach Nat:

You know what? We really should do a separate one all about the menopause. We can do that, so we can do that. Sorry, ladies. If you got excited hearing about that, we're going to talk about that on this one since we're almost at an hour. We'll do the lean individual. The lean, athletic individual on this one.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah.

Coach Nat:

And we'll do a whole separate podcast. All for a minute, ladies.

Coach Bronson:

Okay.

Coach Nat:

Matter of fact, I know we have some rabbit. We have rabbit holes we want to.

Coach Bronson:

Go down about the study and how that works. Right. Because we've actually got like, a case.

Coach Nat:

Study that oh, my gosh. Yes. Okay.

Coach Bronson:

These things actually work, folks. Okay. The next person we have so just to recap, because we kind of got off a little bit aside for the.

Coach Nat:

You did a recap that lasted another thing.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. Right. So on the fitness side, overweight, sedentary, metabolic syndrome, a bunch of issues, no matter what their experience of Keto is, they need to be doing something that is resistance and metabolic conditioning. So full body tried to move their body in as many different ways as possible, get their heart rate up, get moving, get that sweat on, and get their conditioning up okay. As well as something that's challenging their muscles.

Coach Nat:

And if we want to talk about how frequently, I'm a huge fan of moving your body daily.

Coach Bronson:

Absolutely.

Coach Nat:

So I would rather you do ten minutes a day than 1 hour a week.

Coach Bronson:

We can get into a whole other side thing of the beginner stimulus and beginner gains and all the other stuff. Yeah. The level of intensity in your body is much less as a beginner. So feel free to do something every day if you're in this place.

Coach Nat:

Absolutely.

Coach Bronson:

It doesn't need to be only three.

Coach Nat:

Days a week, and that would be much easier to do like, a 15 minutes workout every day.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly.

Coach Nat:

Get in your head that I need to find an hour to do it three times a week. I only did it once a week, and now I feel like a failure and all of that. Because remember, psychology is a big part of all as well.

Coach Bronson:

All right, so the next person we have do you want to explain the next person?

Coach Nat:

Yes. This is our lean, athletic individual. This makes up maybe about half of my clients of yours.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. I've got a couple, but a lot.

Coach Nat:

Yeah. These are our folks who have dealt with or an improved all of their metabolic issues or never had them. Maybe have some things here and there that they're dealing with, but nothing major. No major health risks on the horizon. Typically, these are our athletes. These are our people who are either triathletes or bodybuilders or CrossFitters or yeah, anything, really. Any activities.

Coach Bronson:

Probably have soccer players, volleyball players, whatever.

Coach Nat:

Very active. This is typically the person who doesn't have a lot of downtime or any downtime. They're running from the gym to work to kids stuff, to after work, extracurricular activities to making dinners and doing things in the house. And then maybe they don't ever sit down all day. Probably not chilling on the couch. Not having hours of Netflix at night. Passing out and then waking up, barely getting any sleep. Waking up and doing it all over again.

This might be our 04:

00 A.m.. Or getting up and doing the workout at.

Coach Bronson: 04:

00 A.m.. Or getting up super early. Going into work and getting off work early so they can go to the gym and then get home before the kids do it.

Coach Nat:

Working long shifts at work. Okay. So a lot of the time with these individuals, they are not fueling enough. They are not consuming enough, period, to really support their body and everything.

Coach Bronson:

Well, let's talk about the mindset. So it's one of those things a lot of the people today because the mindset is eat less, work more. Yeah. We've been told that in order to get to look fit, you have to start yourself. And that doesn't make sense if you're trying to be a high performing or an athletic person.

Coach Nat:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

And there's a cognitive dissonance there where people just don't make the connection between physical ability and nutrition.

Coach Nat:

Doing more feels better. Oh, my goodness. And the cardio junkies, I mean, honestly, I see it more with those individuals than bodybuilders. Once you've gotten into bodybuilding and you know a little something, you understand a lot more about it that you have to eat to support your recovery. So typically, we're talking about the athletics that are outside of pure bodybuilding are yeah.

Coach Bronson:

A lot of people get stuck into doing fitness activities for the look for the weight loss. So that's why there's that cognitive distance. You might be thinking about performance. You're thinking about, I need to work off this calories or this thing or whatever.

Coach Nat:

If you're the person who lives by your wearables and you're tracking your calorie burn instead, oh, my goodness. I don't feel successful today because I didn't burn enough calories.

Coach Bronson:

I walked around in my living room for half an hour in a circle to get the rest of my steps in.

Coach Nat:

Oh, gosh.

Coach Bronson:

How many times have you heard that?

Coach Nat:

Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Chasing the burn, right? Chasing the burn in your workout. That workout wasn't hard enough. Oh, this trainer gave me a workout, and it wasn't hard enough.

Coach Bronson:

So I did more.

Coach Nat:

So I did more. Yes. I added more reps, more sets more. I added burpees, I added this, added that. Or you get on a resistance training program and it doesn't feel hard enough because you're used to this sweat. Oh, this sweat.

Coach Bronson:

Sweat. And I'm not working right. That's the hardest one for people who are transitioning from something into, like, okay, I want to build a mass. So this group of people, it's really hard for them to transition into an actual mass or lean mass building program because you don't have to. The intensity is different. The intensity is the effort exerted to move weight, not in how hard can I work my body?

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

It's a different feeling.

Coach Nat:

Feeling like you just throw up at the end of the exercise or it wasn't hard enough. Or you have to walk away from the training session feeling like you can't walk.

Coach Bronson:

Doesn't have to be like that.

Coach Nat:

As a matter of fact, it shouldn't.

Coach Bronson:

You should feel energized after workout, not beat down.

Coach Nat:

And a lot of the time this is also the group. This would also be the group. Let's say they're the newbie to Keto and they're coming from Standard American Diet. They were the people in the spin classes being encouraged to work for their pizza. Right. Work for your carbs. You have to earn your carbs, you have to earn your calories.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, that's not, that's a healthy mindset.

Coach Nat:

Probably counted calories for many years.

Coach Bronson:

Sure.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Well, that's another common thing. A lot of these people regimen, having a regimen is not unfamiliar.

Coach Nat:

Oh, yeah.

Coach Bronson:

So counting calories, tracking their workouts, keeping a schedule like the action portion of doing things is not something we ever really have to work with them on.

Coach Nat:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

It's what they're doing and why they're doing it that we have the most.

Coach Nat:

And we have to encourage them to slow down, which is a really tough one.

Coach Bronson:

That's a hard one. That's always a hard one. You all need to rest. You all need to slow down. It's a whole different thing. So for this group of people, it's a very different solution from an activity perspective because most of the time we're trying to change up the routine, cut down the cardio, increase the training, increase the weight training, get them to take more days off.

Coach Nat:

Yes. Oh my gosh, please take a rest.

Coach Bronson:

That's a whole nother aspect too, because they're probably more experienced in the physical training aspect. So their intensity is higher. So they need more rest than a beginner.

Coach Nat:

And they're addicted. Right. It's addicting. And it's such a mental therapeutic thing for them to be in the gym or to be in their sport. They're taking a day off is very foreign and very uncomfortable.

Coach Bronson:

So when we were talking about the beginners, you can probably do something everyday. These people can't no, the level of intensity that they're working at is more than their body. Their central nervous system primarily can physically handle.

Coach Nat:

They may be doing more than once a day to take more time off.

Coach Bronson:

Have to. So that's just one of the main differences. Right.

Coach Nat:

So we just talk about we kind of this backwards.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. So that for them, we're going to change their program. But probably if their goal, we're assuming this person's goal is to build more muscle primarily and improve performance, which is going to build more muscle. So they got. To get stronger, faster, those types of things. So we're going to change the program to make sure that they're not doing as much metabolic conditioning, because they don't need conditioning. They need muscle. Very different things.

Coach Nat:

Very different.

Coach Bronson:

Some of these people are super lean, and we want them to get we want them to put on a little bit of that yep.

Coach Nat:

With the muscle. Right.

Coach Bronson:

The idea of and this is something that I know blows people's minds is you don't have to be super lean to be a very good athlete.

Coach Nat:

All right? Absolutely. It's amazing, right?

Coach Bronson:

If the idea is to have fuel available whenever your body needs it, then you don't want to be so lean that the only way your body can access fuel is when you eat it. It's got to be on your body, folks.

Coach Nat:

Okay, I have to share a little aside here. When I first started competing, like many women, it was about getting body fat off and just getting lean. And it's funny for me now, when I look back at my first shows, my first show in particular, I just looked like nothing, like I had nothing going on. But after my second show, the second year, competing, and I was in a bad place because I felt like I felt so I didn't feel like I belong on that stage. And I was competing in bikini back then. Bikini has gotten leaner and leaner and leaner over the years, but even back then, like, I was bigger than bikini. And it was hard for me at the time. But what I had to do after that was stopped following people that did not have my body type. And I started at that point in time, embracing following women with muscle, with more muscle than me. And I started considering where I could go with the sport. And as I followed these women now, of course, the algorithms are sharing with me power lifting women and Olympic lifting women and athletic women who are very good at their sports. And I got to see what these women are sharing, first of all, how incredible they looked in their bodies with all that muscle on them. And I started getting attracted to that as opposed to, like many women not wanting to get bulky at first and just wanting to be lean. And once I found that attractive and I started considering that I would look good like that, it really shifted my whole relationship with my body and helped to shift my relationship with food. But then, and even more recently now, seeing more of the power lifter women out there and the athletes who are at a high level in their sport, sharing their off seasons, that is the coolest thing to see, because you get to see healthy women and healthy bodies. This is not too lean. This is not stage lean like bodybuilders in that moment on stage. This is how they walk around when they are at the height of their performance and it looks healthy. And for anyone who's ever had issues with body image or disordered eating where you are just petrified to put fat on your body. So this individual, a lot of the time.

Coach Bronson:

This is the sample person we're talking about.

Coach Nat:

I got to say something.

Coach Bronson:

Get it.

Coach Nat:

A lot of the time this person hides behind their sport and says it's all about performance and says it's all about the sport. But in actuality they are scared to death of putting on body fat and they are purposely under consuming because they're obsessed with that scale.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. And it's the opposite of sports performance.

Coach Nat:

It is, it really is. It's not optimizing anything. It's your health, your quality of life.

Coach Bronson:

And that's where getting into that and saying, look, as a coach, if this is about performance, then these are things you need to do to improve your performance.

Coach Nat:

Yeah. And if it's about body composition and you truly do want to put on muscle, some of these folks, they're great where they are. We can just focus on the building. We don't have to worry about putting on body fat. Others, some body fat really needs to come along with that muscle.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. And here's the deal with the body fat guys, it's okay to be lean. If you're a guy and you're like, I want to get to under 10%, that's great. If you're a woman and you want to get to I don't know what women fantasize about for body fat percentage.

Coach Nat:

I would say anything sub 20 is lean is low for women.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't think from a normal everyday life perspective, anyone needs to be below 20. And honestly guys, that's for guys too. I think guys, if you want to get to 15, that's about as probably as low as I would recommend to be sustainable and not obsessed over what you're eating. For me, I can go intuitive, 100% intuitive and not measure anything. And I will naturally creep up to 15, 16% if I'm just intuitive, that's kind of where my body is happy at a homeostatic and I'd say I'd.

Coach Nat:

Be probably around 20% to 23%.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, but when I'm tracking like right now I'm sub 10% and I'm trying to get you guys know, I play around doing different things. So I'm trying to get lower with some protocols that I'm testing. But it's, it's not bad. Right now, if I get much more lower than I am now, we'll kind of see how things go. But I can imagine my energy is going to start to come down as the body fat on my body. I just have less fat on my body to access. So it'll be interesting to see how that goes. But that's a whole topic for another day.

Coach Nat:

Talking about the nutrition for this.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, I was just going to say this person again, we start in the same, right? We figure out what they are.

Coach Nat:

At the very, very least, we better.

Coach Bronson:

Be having one, right? We want to get them at least two, one to one to one, however we get them there. But that's our starting point, essentially. Now, for them, their fat may go way up.

Coach Nat:

Oh, yeah, right.

Coach Bronson:

Unlike the person who's trying to lose body fat and we're trying to not get near the threshold. This person. We may find their threshold and then add another 20 grams or add another 25 grams because the amount of things that they're doing and the stress they're putting on their body. The fuel requirement for them is higher.

Coach Nat:

And it is likely that their protein is going to be 1.2 to one point even 1.5 times.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. And there's a difference there too. Okay, so here's the difference. If the person's goal is just athletic performance, they are a semi pro or even a pro athlete. They may be at the 1.25. They're not trying to build muscle, they're trying to repair muscle. So they need enough to recover from their activity. Someone who's trying to build and actively gain lean mass, they may be at a one and a half or 1.6 or something like that, where we're like, look, you're going to specifically kill your muscles and try to get them to grow as fast as possible. You need as much protein in your system as you can, and in some cases, it may be higher than that.

Coach Nat:

Mine is 1.6 right now.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah.

Coach Nat:

Mine, I'm at 1.6 times my lean body mass in protein. Keep talking and he's going to calculate his tell you where he's at. It can definitely go up. And here's the caveat there, just as we said before, for the first individual, fat and protein do not need to change the other one. So if you're at 1.6 times your lean body mass in protein and your fat is at 50 grams because you're like, well, I'm eating all this protein, so I dropped my fat. They're separate. You have to separate the two and not consider not to be obsessive about calories, because this person total calories doesn't mean squat. This person's using ratios because of calories, because they don't want to exceed some.

Coach Bronson:

Calorie number, because they're thinking about total calorie expenditure of the day. If I'm this active, then I'm burning this X, which is a whole nother thing that we know is wrong. We don't know how many calories we actually burn.

Coach Nat:

Yeah, you're not going to be able to get an accurate number there.

Coach Bronson:

It doesn't work that way. So, yeah, they're separate again. So they're doing the ratio and the comparison for a different reason. Not because it's some protocol, but because you're trying to stick to the total calorie intake and it's ******** them up.

Coach Nat:

And I don't know. This person may not be as worried about protein calories as the other person, but eating plenty of protein is not going to put fat on your body. But there very much can be a fear of fat with this person. So they don't want to eat the fat.

Coach Bronson:

They're thinking about calories. I don't want to eat any of this stuff, and if I keep the fat low, then I won't. Yeah, you got to eat the fat.

Coach Nat:

So where are you at right now with your fat? I mean, your protein 1.21 is where.

Coach Bronson:

My protein is at right now.

Coach Nat:

Cool.

Coach Bronson:

And I'm gaining about just under a pound a month. Just under a pound a month?

Coach Nat:

Yes. And this is actually a good point to make, is that I'm deep in a cut right now, so my protein is higher because we've had to cut my fuel calories, so my fat is lower. For that reason, a lot of the time in a cut, we will pull the protein up so you can be satiated. You can have more. It's easier to maintain a cut with more protein. In an off season, my protein might not be this high. I'll have a lot more fuel coming in from fat. I'll be happy as a clam.

Coach Bronson:

We got to find out what your threshold is, because we started me at.

Coach Nat:

One to one to one. We started there also because it was like yeah, it was one grand.

Coach Bronson:

No, your threshold is going to change.

Coach Nat:

No, we didn't, because even then, it was higher. It's probably 1.2.

Coach Bronson:

Okay.

Coach Nat:

Because we were doing my total body weight, not my lean body mass.

Coach Bronson:

Got you. Okay. All right. So for this person, we're going to start them, start them at one to one, but they're probably going to be in the 12512 range if they're really trying to grow muscle, maybe even up to 1.5 guys, just in general, you could do more if you wanted to. It's not going to help.

Coach Nat:

No.

Coach Bronson:

There's a diminishing return, and from what I've seen, I think Menno just had an article earlier this year talked about the diminishing return, and anything over 1.5 is pretty much like, yeah, you could do it. It may help with your thermic effect. It may help with thermogenesis this minute percentage of a percent, three decimals over, but it's really not going to help you out that much. So 1.5 is probably the most you need to realistically look at anything over that isn't going to necessarily harm you or do anything bad. But why spend the effort?

Coach Nat:

Well, and I would say this, if you're eating adequate fat, which many of these people are not, you're not going to be able to eat that.

Coach Bronson:

That's a whole nother yes. Fat and proteins combined. Yeah.

Coach Nat:

So typically the reason sometimes we see people out there eating just two times, like, as much protein as I just.

Coach Bronson:

Recently had a couple of clients who are like, I'm doing 300 grams of protein.

Coach Nat:

Sometimes we see that, and I'll tell you why I think that we see that they're not eating adequate fat.

Coach Bronson:

Yup.

Coach Nat:

And they're so afraid of fat that they're just pouring, they're pushing into the protein and just eating all the protein they possibly can. It's unnecessary.

Coach Bronson:

I've got a guy who's like, 6% body fat, and he doesn't want more. He doesn't want to add fat. I'm like and you don't need to be at 6% body fat.

Coach Nat:

I bet you you're constipated. I bet you money you're constipated. You're having problems going to the bathroom. If you're eating double the protein you should, and you're eating half the fat you should, I bet you can't digest that protein.

Coach Bronson:

Can we talk about this? Because this may help people if you're stuck in this. I don't want to add fat. I don't want to build fat. You need to understand that the more muscle you have, the better you'll look with more fat.

Coach Nat:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

So I can be at 10%, 15% body fat. And there's not that much of a difference generally in how it looks. Yes, you can see more veins. You can see the lines in my six pack or whatever more you can see individual muscle spray at things like that at 10%, but it's really not that much different at 1213, 14, 15%.

Coach Nat:

Look, you all I love the way this man looks without clothes on.

Coach Bronson:

Right.

Coach Nat:

He does not need to be lower body fat for me to be attracted to him.

Coach Bronson:

But I've also put on £5 of muscle in the past six months.

Coach Nat:

Yeah, you have.

Coach Bronson:

And I plan on putting on more. So the more muscle you have, this is where I tell you guys, whether you're trying to lose fat or whether you need to gain fat, building muscle is your answer. Always. Muscle solves a lot of problems.

Coach Nat:

Well, ladies, I can tell you that if you're too lean how can I say this? First of all, you're making it more difficult for you to put muscle on your body if you're not getting adequate fat in your diet. But it just I think that there's probably some body dysmorphia going on because majority of people, even in the industry, would tell you that women look better with a little bit of body fat on them.

Coach Bronson:

Sure.

Coach Nat:

That it looks healthier. You fill out more. You're able to really see the curves, in a way.

Coach Bronson:

And we're not saying that this is all about aesthetics. I don't want anybody to think that we're saying you look bad if you're super lean. It's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that if you're trying to actually be healthy, there is unhealthy obese, there is unhealthy lean.

Coach Nat:

Oh, yeah.

Coach Bronson:

They're extremes, and you can be too much of one or the other. And there are hormonal impacts, there are energy management impacts, there are lifestyle impacts. On the negative side of things, the net negative we talked about earlier of being too lean just as much as there is of being obese.

Coach Nat:

And you can look at biofeedback like your energy. How is your energy throughout the day? Are you crashing? Are you struggling with fatigue?

Coach Bronson:

Having a dream of fatigue?

Coach Nat:

Are you not sleeping well at night? These are all signs and symptoms that there's something going on, and it could be you're just too that's too low. Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

Cool. All right, so that's it for the two. We're going to come back and do another episode on the Period Postal.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

Okay, cool. Thanks for listening, guys. Hopefully that was helpful and gives you a little peek into how we look at things, all the different things that we can look at. And we need to get into a lot of the lifestyle stuff. How do we match all the stuff with scheduling and meal timing and food prep and all of the other different things that can go into the equation? So there's a lot of stuff, guys, and hopefully that just gives you a better appreciation for context driven solutions and not just following a set of numbers.

Coach Nat:

So wherever you are right now, here's a takeaway. Here's a little takeaway advice. First things first. If you haven't been tracking, track everything you consume right now for at least a week, two weeks would be great. See where you are, see where you fall within with the numbers that we shared with you. Are you close to one to one protein and fat for your lean body mass? If you're wildly off from that, the first step you need to take is start moving towards that slowly, five to ten gram increments. Whether you need to increase your protein, decrease your fat, increase your fat, or decrease your protein. To get there, try that. And from there, what's the quickest takeaway runs and you can give them for finding their threshold?

Coach Bronson:

For your protein threshold, you want to find the minimum amount of protein that you need to feel good after physical activity.

Coach Nat:

So let's say they've gotten to one to one and they want to improve that.

Coach Bronson:

They want to improve that. If you're at one to one on your protein and you still feel like, man, my workouts feel like ****. I'm tracking. Because you got to track your exercise too. How much weight are you lifting? How fast you do?

Coach Nat:

I'm hungry all the time.

Coach Bronson:

Things like that. Like, I'm hungry all the time. My workouts are improving. I'm not able to add weight to my things, or I'm not able to add reps. If you're saying that your physical performance isn't improving, then up it again. Same thing, 5 grams at a time for a few weeks until you feel like, oh, I did it for two more weeks. I've added 10 grams. I feel really good here. Boom. You found your number. That's your minimum. That number doesn't change.

Coach Nat:

Beautiful.

Coach Bronson:

You stay there.

Coach Nat:

Now, how about the fat?

Coach Bronson:

And then the fat is very similar, except we're looking at are you adding body fat? That's the primary key. That's the primary key. The utilization of fat for fuel is limited in how much your body can use. When you exceed that amount, it will store it. So I don't care how metabolically unhealthy you are, how unhealthy your mitochondria are, any of that other ****. If you are eating more fat than your body can process, you are going to gain fat.

Coach Nat:

It will store the fat.

Coach Bronson:

Fat does not make you fat. Too much fat makes you fat. And it's easy to get too much.

Coach Nat:

One of the biggest questions I get is how do I figure out my macros for maintenance after a cut? I've been on this cut, and this is for anybody who's been a fat loss weight loss journey for a long time. So you've been seeking fat loss weight loss for a long time, and you're like, I think I'm getting close to maintenance, but how do I know? I think I'm good here. I've been on these macros to lose fat for so long now, I don't know what to do with my macros for maintenance. I always tell them this the only thing you change is your fat.

Coach Bronson:

Yes, you keep it.

Coach Nat:

Everything else the same. You start slowly adding fat until you start gaining fat. When you start gaining fat, stop adding fat. It's that simple. It is that simple.

Coach Bronson:

It's that simple. Just add a little fat. And we're not talking about calories, guys. We're talking about grams.

Coach Nat:

Grams of fat, five to 10 grams at a time, max.

Coach Bronson:

Just as we'll make this as simple as possible. Just as an example. Okay. If you are currently at your number. Let's say your lean mass is £100 and you are getting 100 grams of protein every day. And you're getting 100 grams of fat every day. Then your goal and you're trying to understand what maintenance is. Like you just said. Then you're losing at 100 grams of fat every day. I lost £5 of fat. Okay, so that's below your threshold. I keep my protein at 100. I go to 105 of fat grams. I do that for a week or two and see if I gain fat. Did I gain fat? No, I actually still lost fat. Oh, sweet. OK, now go ahead another five for another week or two. So now I'm at 110. Did I gain fat? No, but I didn't lose either. Okay, so maybe we're around the threshold. Let's see if we go to 115. Let's go to another five. Oh, I did that for another week or two. And you know what? I gained a pound of fat over those two weeks. Okay, so somewhere between 110 and 115 is your maximum energy threshold. So go back to 105 and hang out there all day long.

Coach Nat:

Yes. You should be chilling and maintenance chilling. Now, if you are a person who, let's say that exact person you just talked about, you found that fat threshold, you're doing great. You're struggling to make gains. Your workouts are not great. You're not gaining strength. You're not able to add more weight to the bar. You're not able to increase your reps. Your performance is struggling. Your recovery is struggling. I don't want to go back to the gym today. Like, my body is broken down. You need to increase your protein, right?

Coach Bronson:

So you found your threshold for energy. You're at 105. Now, you know, at 105 grams, I'm not going to gain fat. I'm not really going to lose a lot of fat either. I'm going to be kind of in a happy place. So now your protein, you go to 105. Does that make a difference in my exercise? Do I feel better? No, not really. For a week or two. Okay, that didn't happen. After two weeks, let me go to 110. It's the same process, guys. Yes, it's the same process.

Coach Nat:

And guess what? If you hit that energy threshold and your performance is suffering, you need to not be afraid to add protein, thinking that now your calories are going to be too high, you're going to start adding fat. It doesn't work that way, calories. So don't be afraid to add the protein, even if you've already found your fat threshold.

Coach Bronson:

And here's the deal. Let's say, worst case, out of the blue scenario, you do this process and you go from 100 to 120 grams of protein, okay? And then somewhere randomly, you're at 120 grams of protein, at 105 grams of fat. And after three weeks, you're like, man, I put on half a pound of fat. Oh, my God. What do I do? Go to 100 grams of fat now? Just drop the fat down a little bit. It doesn't have to be a super complex thing.

Coach Nat:

Here's a really simple we just simplified this, like, beyond belief just now. Protein for performance, fat for body fat, fat for fuel.

Coach Bronson:

Yes. PPF.

Coach Nat:

So if you're having an issue with body fat, you fix it with fat.

Coach Bronson:

Yup.

Coach Nat:

Not meaning you add fat. Meaning you take lower the fat to lower your body fat.

Coach Bronson:

Yup.

Coach Nat:

If your issue is not having good performance or recovery or strength gained, anything related to your performance, increase protein. For sure, they're separate people. They have separate goals. I hope that made it crystal clear.

Coach Bronson:

If not, you know where to get a hold of us to ask more questions.

Coach Nat:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

Thank you for listening. We will come back and do another episode, specifically on women in periods menopause, because that's going to be fun. One, we have a lot of stuff to talk about there. Thanks for listening. And as always, if you have questions, ideas for topics, anything else you want to hear us talk about, please let us know.

Coach Nat:

Let us know. We want to hear from you.

Coach Bronson:

All right, take it easy, guys.

Coach Nat:

Don't forget to eat, sleep, lift, repeat, not necessarily in that order.