Less Glove More Fist

Is Metabolic Flexibility something we should be chasing?

September 26, 2022 Coaches Bronson and Natalie Season 1 Episode 4
Less Glove More Fist
Is Metabolic Flexibility something we should be chasing?
Show Notes Transcript

Metabolic flexibility is a confusing topic. Do we need carbs or not? How does carb cycling help make keto work better? If carbs aren't essential, how do they help long-term keto?

4:05 What's the deal with Metabolic Flexibility?
7:15 Do we need to eat plants to make keto sustainable?
10:55 Can we become efficient at processing plants?
13:30 What if I've cut out plants forever?
17:48 Dealing with the mental conditioning around nutrition choices
25:10 Plants aren't enjoyable by themselves
27:25 Metabolic pathways
31:45 What about cardio?
33:05 Exercise benefits are the same as fasting
35:25 Excess fuel is excess fuel
36:56 True Metabolic Flexibility
41:31 What is the real goal here?
43:00 Allostatic load and sustainable progress
46:05 It's not about Ketosis
48:12 Ketosis vs Ketogenic
53:20 Stop testing your exhaust

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Coach Natalie:

Welcome to the Left Glove morphist podcast.

Coach Bronson:

With me, Coach Bronson and me, Coach Natt, where we peel back the curtains and reveal the truth behind hot topics in health and fitness.

Coach Natalie:

This is Keto Fitness at Life.

Coach Bronson:

Unfiltered. What's going on, everybody? It's Coach Bronson and Coach Nat coaching. How are you today?

Coach Natalie:

I'm doing good.

Coach Bronson:

Doing good. You got a busy day today.

Coach Natalie:

I went to hot yoga this morning.

Coach Bronson:

Hot yoga? You went shopping, got all the foods. Tell them about what you found on a deal for me. All the meats today.

Coach Natalie:

Oh, my gosh. I'm actually doing a real about this because I found quite a few great deals at Lidl, if that's how you pronounce it.

Coach Bronson:

Is it lidl? Little lidl. LDL.

Coach Natalie:

If anybody knows how that store is meant to be pronounced, please let us know. But it is the closest to where we live right now. We have a Whole Foods right next door and a Lido right across the street.

Coach Bronson:

You need to give a finger just to walk into Whole Foods because you're going to get an arm and leg on the way out.

Coach Natalie:

We have the bougie store and we have the budget friendly store. So I went to the budgetfriendly. That's my favorite place to shop now. And I found some new things today and some really great deals and some of our favorites. So I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that. The lamb legs, whole boneless lamb legs and legs roast, $5 a pound. That is half off. Usually £99 is actually really good for a lamb leg anyway. Typically if you walk into a whole food, it'd probably be twelve or 13 easy. So 999 would have been great per pound. But usually I'm dissuaded because you're buying a three pound leg or something like that and it adds up quickly. So $5 a pound. I was like, you are kidding me.

Coach Bronson:

I'm not boneless.

Coach Natalie:

That's boneless, right? So you don't have bone. You're taken out like that's all meat. So I bought about £10 and it's all going in the crock pot tonight.

Coach Bronson:

Nice. Do you think you can get all of it?

Coach Natalie:

I think so. We have a pretty large crockpot.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. Well, we eat a lot of meat.

Coach Natalie:

We do.

Coach Bronson:

All right. And what did I do today? What did I do today?

Coach Natalie:

You went to brunch.

Coach Bronson:

Oh, I did. I went to brunch. We have somebody that was in kathy and her husband were up from Arizona because her daughter is getting married this weekend. So they're a member of my challenge in my groups. They're like, hey, we're in town. Do you want to come out brunch? So we went to first watch, got some extra eggs, got some great sausage.

Coach Natalie:

That's his favorite.

Coach Bronson:

Oh, my God. I might have overeaten it just a little bit, I think.

Coach Natalie:

You still haven't had another meal today?

Coach Bronson:

I haven't, no. That's pretty much it. That's what I've had pretty much all day. So it was good. It was good. Nine eggs, six lengths of sausage. Wow, it was good. I'm feeling really satisfied and satiated right now. Call back to our last episode. Alright, what are we talking about today? Today we're talking about a hot topic today we're going to talk about metabolic flexibility, what it is, and if you need to worry about it, if it's something that actually matters in the big picture or not. We hear a lot of people talking about the need to flex between fuel sources, fuel systems, carbs and fats and all of these things. And I think there's really a lot of confusion. One, because how people understand metabolic flexibility is different because there are actually different ways to use the term based on the context of where you're coming from and what you're trying to do. But then also when you have people who are keto influencers, who have based their message on carbs are not essential. Ketosis is what we're meant to be in. It's our natural state when we're born ketogenic and being fat burners is the best for our health. To then also be saying what you might want to throw in some carbs. So you're flexible at same time. Like what? Like your brain kind of just stops for a second and it's like a glitch in the matrix. That's how I look at it. Because to me, if you're saying that keto is the way to be, then keto is the way to be. It doesn't make sense to say keto is the way to be. We don't need carbs except when we do. Are you on the same sheet of music there, Krishna?

Coach Natalie:

Well, Coach Bronson gets into the definitions of metabolic flexibility. There's one piece that I latch onto and how I first understood metabolic flexibility was from a primal standpoint, the way Mark system talks about it. And it's that learning to burn fat as fuel is how we become metabolically flexible because we have been burning carbs our entire lives.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Natalie:

So what makes us think we need to go back to carbs to learn to be metabolically flexible?

Coach Bronson:

Right?

Coach Natalie:

How we become metabolically flexible is learning to not rely on carbs.

Coach Bronson:

Yes, absolutely. That's the change, that's the process. And as we dig into the different definitions, there are three definitions that we've identified format about flexibility. They're very different, they are used very differently and they all have very different applications and things like that. But as we dig into those, you'll see what we mean when we say that true metabolic flexibility is all about letting your body do the work.

Coach Natalie:

Oh, I like that.

Coach Bronson:

That's really where we're going to boil down to. So you'll see what we talk about when we get to that. So the first definition we're going to go through, what do you think we should just kind of go through here's definition number one. One of the ways that we hear people talk about metabolic flexibility. Go through some thoughts and stuff there. Then we'll go to the next one. Or the next one. Okay, that works. Yes, we did plan this ahead, everybody. Just so you know, sometimes we get into rants and we go on side tangents that are completely unplanned. But even though it may sound like we're rambling, we do actually have somewhat of an outline.

Coach Natalie:

Getting back to something, we do have.

Coach Bronson:

Some point we're trying to make.

Coach Natalie:

We will get back to the point eventually.

Coach Bronson:

Eventually. All right, definition number one. I've heard people use bed flexibility in the conversations around eating carbs and that we should be good at digesting and assimilating and pulling nutrients from carbohydrates, plant based sources in order to honestly, I don't know what the real reason or why they say that we should do this. And here's why I say that. The ideas that we need carbs to okay, we're going to go I'm going to backtrack a little bit. The things that I've heard people say that we need, even though we don't need carbs, they're not essential, but that we should have carbs to do. Because if we're ketogenic for too long, if we're in ketosis for too long, these are things that are going to be a problem. Thyroid, testosterone, leptin help control leptin resistance, which we talked about. And another thing, and there's one other one, it totally just left my mind. Metabolic rate, metabolic efficiency. So the idea that if we don't have fat, then our body actually slows down burning fat, that's actually what that's actually one of the reasons why people say we need carbs. So that if we have carbs, it helps us burn more fat. You should see the look on her face right now.

Coach Natalie:

I am so perplexed.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. And then the other one is cortisol. That because if we're in ketosis all the time, our body has to raise cortisol in order to trigger the gluconeogenesis to make glucose. So that elevated cortisol is in a good thing. We need carbs to drop our cortisol. All that kind of stuff. I will just tell you that I have seen nothing in evidence of anyone I've worked with where any of those things are actually a thing. Now, there are people out there who have much bigger practices than I do, who have said that they have seen cases where someone was having a problem with elevated cortisol or their inflammation markers went up as well as their HPA and things like that. And that introducing some carbs help bring all that stuff down, whatever that mechanism was. I think there are other ways to do that. We've talked about protein does the same thing.

Coach Natalie:

I was just thinking exactly that you could do the same thing with protein.

Coach Bronson:

You can do the same thing with protein. So there's a lot of different ways. But it boils down to the first thing I talk about at the beginning of if we're saying that being in ketosis, that being ketogenic primarily because it's not really about ketosis, that being Ketogenic is the way that we're meant to be and we don't need carbs, then it doesn't make logical sense to say, until being ketogenic is unhealthy, then we need carbs. It just doesn't make sense to me. And just in case anyone is wondering, this episode might be a lot more of me talking, because this is a topic that I get inspired and wildly passionate about this, because one thing that I don't like in anything, really, and that is when people make things overly complicated, and it makes it hard for people to understand and implement practical things in their lives. If you're telling people one plus one equals two, you can't say, until it doesn't, and then it equals three, but only this. And when the sky is blue, it's four. One plus one equals one, or it doesn't. This isn't algebra, guys, that we're doing here. This is math. This is a simple thing. It doesn't have to be complicated. So getting back to the idea that metabolic flexibility that we need to somehow maintain an ability to process plant based foods in order to be optimal, again, that statement when I say it that way, that doesn't sound logical to me either, because our body is not good. No matter how long have we been eating plant based foods and how sick are we, right? How long were you eating plants where you removed a lot of plants, and then when you removed all the plants, everything got better. You got optimal health. You got closer to optimal health.

Coach Natalie:

I mean, like, all of us, our entire lives, we were doing that until we weren't, right? So if you have gone carnivore, whether you've been carnivore for four months or four years, that's still a tiny fraction of your life that you've spent this way. All of us spent 30 plus most of us even reach this until we were at least in our 30s, if not later. So we're talking three decades you spent.

Coach Bronson:

Eating standard American diet or plants or veggies that you have to get your veggies in, whatever it may be. So the idea when we talk about metabolic flexibility from a food intake, digestibility, gut health, hormone management, any of that kind of stuff, all of those things, can there be issues when we talk about ketosis? That's a different conversation. I'll probably be doing a video on my own channel about long term ketosis, and that that is different than what we're talking about with being able to process plant based foods. If we're not doing it and we get better, how do we get healthier? By doing it right? It just doesn't make sense to me. That's like telling an alcoholic that he needs to be alcohol flexible by every once in a while going to the bar and having a shot.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah, that would be a really great analogy it's like saying, well, to make sure your liver can still process the alcohol.

Coach Bronson:

Right?

Coach Natalie:

Give your body some alcohol every once in a while just to make sure.

Coach Bronson:

Just to make sure like what?

Coach Natalie:

That doesn't make any sense. I guarantee your liver will function better if you never take another sip of that 110%.

Coach Bronson:

So that's the one thing about this. And then the other thing about this is that both of us are looking at each other as we're having this conversation, trying to find a way to say this in a way that makes sense, because I can't think of I've heard people say that we need carbs so that we're better we need to eat plants so that we maintain the ability to eat plants. But if I'm not eating plants, why do I care?

Coach Natalie:

Well, there you go. There's the crux. If you're not eating plants and you've committed to not eating plants the rest of your life, then you wouldn't care. And there's a whole community of carnivores out there that are committed to doing this for the rest of their lives, generally, because they've gotten miraculous results on it, and they wouldn't dream of going back because they can feel the difference. They're still very connected to where they were before they went carnivore and what carnivore has done for them, and they wouldn't even dream of eating a plant again for the rest of their life.

Coach Bronson:

Raising my hand.

Coach Natalie:

Right now, the only place this comes up is people who want to eat plants again. They are not fully invested and committed to the carnivore lifestyle, so they are looking for justification. I think I figured out the word I was looking for earlier. Confirmation bias.

Coach Bronson:

Confirmation bias. Yeah. There you go. They're looking for someone to say, it's okay.

Coach Natalie:

You should be not just okay, but necessary, because now and here's the thing, people. Okay, you know what? This is unfiltered, right?

Coach Bronson:

Get it?

Coach Natalie:

Here's my thing. Do what the F you want to do and be unapologetic about it.

Coach Bronson:

Bingo.

Coach Natalie:

If you want to ingest poison and you want to argue for putting poison in your body, whether that is in the form of drugs, alcohol, sugar, heavily processed foods, or vegetables, say, I want to do this. I'm choosing to do this because it's what I want to do.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Natalie:

Don't try to find some kind of scientific reasoning or explanation for why you're choosing to do this. Just own it.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. And this is one of the things we see with a handful of influencers out there now who are the reason I quit Keto, the reason I quit Carnival, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like that's not the reason. That's what you're saying. Because you want to get some views on YouTube or Instagram or validation so you can get people to say, oh, yeah, it worked for me, too. Well, yeah, because you wanted to eat this other stuff. Go eat the other stuff. We don't need to justify our actions, just like we don't need to justify why you went carnivore in the first place to anybody. You don't need to justify why you get off of it.

Coach Natalie:

You know what? I expect someone so much more if they just said, I just missed asparagus and I wanted to eat asparagus, so I started eating it again.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. You know who? Somebody who actually did that?

Coach Natalie:

I know who you're going to say.

Coach Bronson:

I think dr. Peter Adia.

Coach Natalie:

I thought you were talking about Lily Kane. I love her because she's so real and so honest with what she does. She just did a fruit experiment over.

Coach Bronson:

Some stuff wasn't good. Some stuff was good.

Coach Natalie:

She's always honest about her experience. She tells you about her symptoms and how these things didn't work for her, but she was tired of this, and she wanted to try that and be who you are.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. But Dr. Peter Atya, he basically said, look, I stopped keto because I wanted some veggies. I wanted this, I wanted that. Like, I missed it. We're real people, folks. It's okay. Your priorities are your priorities. So if you feel like you can afford your health, can afford the decision, that is absolutely your prerogative to do that. So the justification or trying to find the justification to make yourself feel better, that's what it is about doing X, Y, or Z or leaving keto or whatever else it is, it's expended effort that really is unnecessary.

Coach Natalie:

And let's be real. When most of us come to this lifestyle, usually it is because we are struggling with something health related that we are willing to do anything to get to change. Right? And for many of us, we have had it beaten into our heads our entire lives that vegetables are healthy for us. So when it comes down to making the lifestyle change, of taking the veggies out, we still hear that voice in our head, and for a long time, you may be questioning this lifestyle, and you may be questioning, well, still feeling like you should be eating vegetables. And I understand that feeling that way and questioning. There are a lot of people out in the community who latch onto these concepts because they're questioning.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. They're not sure. And it's the same reason why I still take beef liver sometimes, or I still do some other supplements. It's like fish oil, things like that. Because as much as I'm into all of this and I've been doing it for four years, I'm super happy with the results and everything else. There's still that little voice in my head that says, what about this? And it's still meat based. I'm still doing everything carnivore ish. Not that I really care. It is what it is. But I still do every once in a while, you know what? Just to make sure that I'm getting everything that I need, I'll do some beef liver tablets. I'll do that for a few weeks, and then I'll take a few weeks off, and then I'll do it again. I'll do the fish oil capsules every once in a while or take things like that just to have that umbrella of security.

Coach Natalie:

I like that. Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

So that's kind of how I look at it. If that's what you feel about veggies, then by all means, go for it.

Coach Natalie:

But we've got to be honest. Here's the thing. Most people consuming veggies, if you're truly being present in your body, would admit and all of my clients fall into this category admit that they don't feel their best when they're consuming veggies. They feel bloated, they feel uncomfortable, they feel constipated. They're not comfortable after that just because.

Coach Bronson:

They'Ve cut it out for so long that their gut can't handle processing it well.

Coach Natalie:

And that's also I'll never forget back in the day when I worked in a traditional office and I had everything in moderation, people. Well, your body stops learning how to or stop producing the enzymes to digest the thing when you do an elimination.

Coach Bronson:

Sure.

Coach Natalie:

And that's accurate. Actually, when you stop consuming a food, it only takes two weeks, 14 days for your microbiome to shift. So absolutely your body will not have the enzymes it needs to break down.

Coach Bronson:

Anything, whatever it is that it used to eat, it doesn't need it.

Coach Natalie:

That's why vegans get sick when they consume meat.

Coach Bronson:

They got to ease back into it so their body can start doing what it needs to do. Sure.

Coach Natalie:

But your body will develop the enzymes again to do that. When you put it back in. Same thing. May only take 14 days for you to adjust again. But does that mean that then 14 days later, or a month later, after adding the veggies back in, people feel better, and now all of a sudden, they're digesting perfectly? No. Most people that I know who have never gone carnivore have never cut veggies out of their diet, always feel bloated and uncomfortable after meals. Women in particular are always stressing about their lower belly and the bloat. That is the number one concern I hear all the time from women. And they believe and they think that this is just a reality of life that they have to deal with. Everyone I know who has gone carnivore, one of the number one things I hear besides specific medical things they have seen improve is no more bloat.

Coach Bronson:

No more bloat. Gas bloaty. So women say bloat, guys say gas.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah, same thing, guys. It's the same thing.

Coach Bronson:

We fart and we're proud of it. Men are the only creatures, I think, that fart and then look around and see if anybody noticed, not because we're embarrassed, but because we went out. We're looking for a credit.

Coach Natalie:

Women look around hoping nobody noticed. Men look around hoping somebody noticed.

Coach Bronson:

You want a high five? Give me a high five. Dang it. All right. So that's definition number one. That's when we're talking about metabolic flexibility, which technically, it's not metabolically. That's more about digestive and processing plant based versus animal based foods. But it really does go into the conversation a lot when people think of metabolic flexibility.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah, that's more of the argument for the gut microbiome diversity.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. It's more of a gut microbiome diversity thing, which, again, if you're not planning on eating meats or plants, and plants for the past 20 years have been making you sick, then I still don't understand why you need to be good at eating plants. The whole concept of this discussion, I almost kind of like, why are we even having this discussion? It just doesn't make any sense to me to have this argument.

Coach Natalie:

I personally can say, since going carnivore, I have never once craved a vegetable.

Coach Bronson:

Oh, my God. No.

Coach Natalie:

Do I still crave sweet.

Coach Bronson:

One time, yes. One time.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

Corn about two years into Carnivore. That is the most random story. Growing up in this area where my parents live. Down the road from where they live is a local farmers market like, side road vegetable stand.

Coach Natalie:

Okay.

Coach Bronson:

They have the best silver queen corn in the whole East Coast. It's so good. I'm almost thinking about going against them right now as we're talking about it, but there was one time, I think about two and a half years ago, where I went over to my parents for dinner, and they had had some or somebody had somebody had corn somewhere. Might not even my parents might have been somewhere else. We went to a barbecue or something, and they were cooking corn on the grill. And it just brought me back to the corn that we used to have at my parents house. And I was sitting there, I'm like, I don't eat veggies, but I really want some fucking corn. It smells good. It looked good.

Coach Natalie:

That is so interesting.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, that was one time.

Coach Natalie:

I'm like, the only thing that comes to mind is going to a restaurant, and they have, like, early on, when I first january, February, going out to restaurants where they have the crispy Brussels sprouts with bacon or whatever with the glaze. Well, I hate the glaze. To me, the glaze ruins it because I want the crunchy, salty, salty garlic sprouts. But you know what? I can do that without the Brussels sprouts. Right. Because when you think about it, the vegetable is not the thing we enjoy.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. You're in my head, I was going to say the thing about the corn. It's not about the corn. It's about the salt and the butter.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah, exactly. This is what I always say about carbs. Think about typical carbs. Potatoes, rice, bread, they're all bland substances on their own. They have no flavor.

Coach Bronson:

Right. 100%.

Coach Natalie:

It's all about what you put on them.

Coach Bronson:

Ding, ding, ding.

Coach Natalie:

And the biggest problem with these carbs is nobody's eating the carb by itself.

Coach Bronson:

That's a whole other discussion. Carbs back together.

Coach Natalie:

And carbs, because that's what makes it taste good, is the fat and the salt, which the fats and the salt without the carbs are great for you. Unless, of course, you're using industrial seed oils, in which case oxidative damage, high inflammation, leading to disease. But if we're talking about natural fats, like butter butter, tallow butter, butter in my case, olive oil. I'm a Greek girl. I haven't given up my olive oil. Sorry, guys. I don't believe olive oil is trying to kill me. But healthy fat and salt?

Coach Bronson:

I just had pictures of a bunch of olives on the table trying to run at you.

Coach Natalie:

Sorry. No one will ever convince me to stop consuming olive oil. Don't even try it. But, yeah, the salt and the fats together are amazing. The reason they've been vilified is because they are being consumed along with the starch. And altogether, especially on a low protein diet, which majority of standard American diet people are on is a recipe for disaster.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, absolutely. All right, so that's the first area when we talk about metabolic flexibility that you need to be aware of. And in our estimation, is it something people need to worry about?

Coach Natalie:

No.

Coach Bronson:

Okay. No. All right. Definition number two of metabolic flexibility. This is one I think people don't know about or don't talk about enough, primarily for one reason. Because usually the topic of metabolic flexibility happens in the nutrition space. And this definition of metabolic flexibility is a fitness aspect. It's exercise science. And that is the ability of our body to utilize fuels based on the activity that we're doing. So the efficiency of our body to go from there's three metabolic pathways. There's phosphogenic or ATP fat pathway. That's the energy that we use when we're doing strength work. Sprints, things like that. Then there's these glycolytic, short bursts. Then there's the glycolytic pathway. That's glycogen. That's when we're doing things that are high intensity, shorter duration. Not quite as short as a sprint, but that one to two minute, three minute, ten minute hit training kind of a thing. And then there's the oxidative or fat burning pathway, which is the long endurance running kind of thing. Running, biking, swimming, that kind of stuff. So the ability of our body to be efficient at all three of those phases. To be good at burning fat when you're doing that type of work. To be good at burning glycogen when you're doing that kind of work. To be good at processing ATP when you're doing that kind of work. That is a level of flexibility that our body needs to be good at switching back and forth or utilizing and being efficient. You know what? It's not even a switching back and forth because we're always doing all three.

Coach Natalie:

It's a capability of utilizing.

Coach Bronson:

Right. We're always doing all three areas. So it's how efficient is it? That's where mitochondrial health really comes in. So that's where being ketogenic is the best way to be metabolically flexible from an exercise science perspective, because the healthier your mitochondria are, the better they function. The better they function, the better they process in all three of those spaces of energy utilization.

Coach Natalie:

Converting the energy.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, not even converting, just being able to use it. Because we're assuming at this point in this phase where we're working with the assumption that the energy is there. So I have stored glycogen, I have fatty acids or ketones available. I have ATP stored in the muscle. So I just need to go grab it and use it. Grab it and use it when I need to use it. And that's where accessing is a good way to say it. So this is one of the things where if you want to be truly metabolically flexible, guess what, folks? You need to exercise and train your body in all three phases of energy utilization.

Coach Natalie:

What? I have to exercise?

Coach Bronson:

You got to exercise.

Coach Natalie:

I thought I could do all this with nutrition.

Coach Bronson:

You can get skinny with nutrition. You cannot get healthy with nutrition. Well, you can get healthier. If you guys have ever seen my slide where I talk about what is health and where nutrition gets us on the health perspective is a baseline. Just doing things based off nutrition is going to get you back to where you were when you were born. When you were born. You're not strong. You're not coordinated. You can't walk, you can't run, you can't do things. We don't want to be babies when we're 50 years old, okay? So we need to improve the physical aspects of our lives to then actually empower us to be physically independent and live a good quality of life. That's where fitness comes in, and that's where getting your body to be efficient in utilizing all three energy sources is super, super, super important. Okay? That's one of the reasons why we say build muscle and be ketogenic. Because when you build we were talking essentially what metabolic flexibility from an exercise science perspective is a fancy way of saying it's having a well functioning metabolism. That's all it is.

Coach Natalie:

Makes sense.

Coach Bronson:

It's healthy mitochondria. It's a lot of lean mass and muscle mass because muscle drives your metabolism. So the more muscle you have, the better you are managing and utilizing energy. That's all there is to it. So you want to do whatever you can to build muscle. This is one of the reasons why we don't say do a bunch of cardio, right? Doing cardio is fantastic. And don't get me wrong, guys, cardio should be part of everybody's fitness routine. It should not be the only thing you're doing. Just going to let that one sit for a second. Let that one sink in. Because here's what happens. Cardio and I love this analogy. We talked about this the other day. While you're doing cardio, you. Are simulating what your body wants to do. 24/7. You're simulating that energy efficiency, that energy utilization, but it only happens while you're doing cardio. As soon as you stop doing cardio, your body stops processing energy the same way with the intensity and the requirement of efficiency that you get because you're performing. So when you have added muscle, when you have added strength, when your body is demanding more energy and more utilization all the time, it gets better doing it. How do we make a system better? We make the system better by giving it a demand and telling it that it needs to get better. That's pretty much it. So if you want to have more energy, if you want to be stronger, and if you want to you're ready for this one. Increase autophagy. If you want to increase insulin sensitivity, if you want to increase metabolic rate, if you want to do all of the things that somehow match what fasting does, then you need to exercise. That's a topic for another day. I'll just drop that one here. So what do you think about that exercise from the standpoint of being efficient and making your body better at accessing the fuel? This is where adaptation comes into play. And you know it's happening when you go through the phases of adaptation. That's what keto adaptation is. Your body is getting better at utilizing the fuels that you want it to use. Now, if I take this coach that and I tell you that this is where we talk about real metabolic flexibility, if we are ketogenic and we're not ingesting carbs you were talking about this in the kitchen earlier. We're not ingesting carbs. Your body is forced to utilize fat and then carbs that we have in our body because we don't have access, we're not shoving it in our face.

Coach Natalie:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

So if we're shoving it in our face, then the access of fuel from.

Coach Natalie:

Our body doesn't need to tap into that.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. So that efficiency is gone.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

So again, true metabolic flexibility from an exercise science perspective is being able to access your body's stores of fuel, not having to eat fuel in order to have energy.

Coach Natalie:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

That's the key. So accessing your body's sources of fuel, body fat, stored, glycogen it's there because your body wants to use it, you don't have to eat it. All that goes for excess fat as well.

Coach Natalie:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

Okay.

Coach Natalie:

If it's constantly giving your body exogenous fuel, putting more fuel in, like, we use the gas tank analogy on our last episode to talk about why do you need to top off the tank? We're not going to go top off the tank. Every time we leave the house, we wait until we're sufficiently low on fuel and then need to refuel to add more gas to the tank.

Coach Bronson:

Right.

Coach Natalie:

Same thing with your body. Why do you need to continuously top off the fuel when you have plenty to work off of.

Coach Bronson:

Exactly. Plenty to work off of and actually kind of that's a really good segue, actually, into the next definition. Is that enough info on the second definition?

Coach Natalie:

I think so. I hope so. I mean, we both understand these pathways, but you guys tell us if you want to know more about the energy pathways on the exercise science side of things, we can do a deeper dive on another.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, absolutely. Because it ties in to the next thing we're talking about. So when we talk about definition number two, being your body's efficiency at accessing available fuel, I like that better. Not the ability. It's your body's efficiency at accessing available fuel.

Coach Natalie:

Right. Because you want it to readily be able to access and be efficient and.

Coach Bronson:

Get the most out of every gram that it uses. Right. All the calories and everything. The next thing is, where does that fuel come from? Where is it coming from, and how does it get stored? That's where I think metabolic flexibility comes into its true definition, and that is your body's ability to create the fuel that it needs. Now, we know that we have to ingest fat. We can't make fat. So if fat is something we have.

Coach Natalie:

To eat, is it essential?

Coach Bronson:

Nutrient carbs are not because their body can make glycogen. So when I say being metabolically flexible, what I'm really saying is being ketogenic and allowing the ketogenic process to become efficient enough to support the production of glycogen.

Coach Natalie:

What do you mean by that? You lost me at that point.

Coach Bronson:

So gluconeogenesis for a lot of people, if you haven't talked about this, the big g words is not about protein, it's about fatty.

Coach Natalie:

It's a boogeyman of the keto world.

Coach Bronson:

Well, we couldn't be keto without gluconeogenesis.

Coach Natalie:

Oh, yeah, we die.

Coach Bronson:

We die because we need glycogen. And the reason that carbs are not essential is because of gluconeogenesis. So when we need glycogen, our body creates it from fat, from anything. From anything? Yeah, essentially from anything. It'll take it from fat, it'll take from protein. But if fat is available and here's the deal, the substrates that gluconeogenesis uses to make glycogen from fatty acids are the byproducts of what ketogenesis uses when it breaks down fatty acids into ketones. So ketogenesis takes fatty acids, it turns it into aceto. Acetate. We're going to get a little science here real quick. It turns it into two things, betahydroxybutyrate and acido. Acetate. Beta hydroxybutyrate is what we all commonly know as ketones. That's when our body utilizes for the fuel to create ATP and do our movement and make things happen. Aceto. Acetate breaks up into pyruvate, acetate and lactate, sorry, pyruvate and acetate. And then that's what goes into the Krebs cycle and the core cycle, which are cycles underneath gluconeogenesis to create glycogen. So the process of ketogenesis, of being ketogenic, gives gluconeogenesis the things that it needs to make glycogen. Right. So true. Metabolic flexibility means supporting the two systems in our body that help our body create fuel. Does that make sense?

Coach Natalie:

Yeah, makes sense to me.

Coach Bronson:

So if we're giving ourselves carbs to be flexible, we're actually taking away from our body's efficiency at doing it on its own. It's the opposite of being metabolically flexible.

Coach Natalie:

Right. So the opposite, being metabolically inflexible is basically what leads to insulin resistance, type two diabetes and on and on and on all these metabolic syndrome conditions because you are in a position where your body cannot store properly and access properly the fuels of your body, the fuel that your body needs to function.

Coach Bronson:

Right. Yeah. The overconsumption in all three of these things that we've talked about, I can't see anything that says to me, here's a reason that makes sense why we should ingest carbs in order to be metabolically flexible.

Coach Natalie:

Okay.

Coach Bronson:

We've said that a couple of times. This is really the core of this discussion is we keep hearing people saying that we need to ingest carbs to be flexible, but I don't see it.

Coach Natalie:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Okay.

Coach Natalie:

So when we talk about hearing in the space that metabolic flexibility is the goal, the question is, what are we really talking about when we say that?

Coach Bronson:

Right.

Coach Natalie:

When we're saying we should be striving for metabolic flexibility, what we actually mean and really should be saying is we should be striving to become fat adapted.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Natalie:

But unfortunately. The term has now been utilized bastardized. To mean we need to be switching constantly between fuel sources that we are ingesting that we need to be ingesting fats today and carbs tomorrow and carb cycling and going through a ketogenic phase and then shifting out of ketosis and going back to higher carb so that we can shift away and learn how to process carbs again and then go back. And to me, this is the same insanity that the fitness industry has climbed onto with carb cycling. And you see in some groups this cyclical Keto approach where once a week we're having an all out cheat day where we get to have all these carbs and then we taper back off and enter ketosis again. And we're doing that every single week. I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like adding a lot.

Coach Bronson:

Of stress yeah, absolutely.

Coach Natalie:

To your system. And for somebody who is already in a disadvantaged state, metabolically, that is the worst possible thing.

Coach Bronson:

What you just said right there is huge in this conversation. Let's just say on the off chance we can find something or someone comes to us and says, look, here's a list of things. Here's some information. Here's clinical information. Here's what I've seen in my practice when it happened. Whatever it is, if someone could come to us and say, look, these are some valid things that make sense to us on why this works, context matters, and it makes it even less likely. I think for that to happen in the context of somebody who is severely metabolically unhealthy.

Coach Natalie:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

The more unhealthy you are, the more simplistic, the more foundational and the least complicated your solution needs to be.

Coach Natalie:

Absolutely.

Coach Bronson:

So throwing in something that is jacking up your stress, the stress in your body and inflammation in your body for a short period of time and then taking it away for a period of time and then adding it back in for a period of time and then taking it, that is the last thing that you need. You need consistent, sustainable improvements.

Coach Natalie:

Your body wants to heal homeostasis.

Coach Bronson:

Yes. You cannot be going all up. It's the same issue that bodybuilders have. We use that analogy when we talk about calorie deficits and they go on this super cut where their calories go super low before they show and then they jack up their food again afterwards and they're eating a bunch of crap and everything else. And you wonder why they have hormone problems and food addiction problems and all sorts of other things. It's not consistent. You need to have something consistent. Your body, your brain, your body, your central nervous system, your immune system, all of these systems in your body are just whacked out.

Coach Natalie:

This is why if you haven't listened to our episode on the Extremes yes, go and listen to that one. This is why we don't recommend jumping to any extreme going from standard American diet to fasting. This is going to be the best way I can get into Carnivore. I saw this in a group the other day. It's like we laugh about this, but we're actually seeing people do this. And this is the reason why we're doing this podcast. Because people need to hear this, that thinking, oh, fasting is going to be the quickest way for me to get into Ketosis and to get into this Carnivore lifestyle. It's going to be great. Oh my gosh. It doesn't need to be that extreme. Matter of fact, you want to talk about oxalate dumping, you want to talk about getting every single symptom and making it more difficult for yourself to sustain this lifestyle because you've now dropped all your electrolytes all at once. You've completely disrupted the homeostatic balance in your body. And your body is freaking out. Your psychology is freaking out. Your mind yourself with the changes that you're making and make small changes.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. If there's one thing I could do as a coach, there's one thing I can do as an influencer in this space. One thing that I could do. Two things. What's that? Two things. My big vision and my big mission in life is to get people to understand that you cannot have a good quality of life without being in shape. You have to have fitness in your life in order to live a free and independent life. Period. Second, if I could get people to stop trying to be in ketosis. If I hear one more person say, how fast can I get into ketosis? Or I was off this weekend, how long is it going to take me to get back? I swear. I swear, every time I see that.

Coach Natalie:

It'S like, Coach Bronson, you just talked about how ketosis is the ideal and optimal. Should we all be chasing after that?

Coach Bronson:

I said being ketogenic is the ideal and the optimal. Not being in ketosis, two very different things.

Coach Natalie:

Do I smell a new episode topic?

Coach Bronson:

We can talk about it all day.

Coach Natalie:

I know you're getting ready to talk about it.

Coach Bronson:

We can talk about it all day. I think I already did. I don't remember. I've talked about it a couple of times, but we could do a whole thing on what is it? Oh, I am going to do I do have an episode. I have a whole notes that I've been putting together on why what is the potential issues behind long term ketosis? Doing some research, trying to find some stuff out there. I've seen some things. I've seen other things that do make sense, some things that don't make sense. But regardless, ketosis is not the goal. Ketosis is not the goal. Ketosis is not the goal. If there's anything you get out of this episode, ketosis is not the goal. Okay. Being ketogenic and allowing your body to create the fuel that it needs and be truly metabolically flexible real quick is the goal.

Coach Natalie:

Give them the difference between being in a ketogenic state so having ketosis happening in your body versus being ketogenic when you say being ketogenic?

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. So ketosis being in ketosis, the state of being in ketosis, all it means is you have excess ketones in your blood. So you can be check this out. You can be in ketosis and eat you can be in ketosis right after you ate a pint of ice cream.

Coach Natalie:

All you have to do is ingest drink some ketones. Ketones, right.

Coach Bronson:

I can tell my body I can get a ketone strip and tell the ketone strip that I'm in ketosis right after I drank a coke or something like that. It has nothing to do with anything. It just means you have excess fuel in your blood. Because ketones are the actual fuel that our body uses to make ATP. Just like Glycogen is the actual fuel that comes from carbs to make ATP. I love this analogy. We've talked about this before. If you have a lifestyle of excess glucose in your blood, that's bad, right?

Coach Natalie:

Yeah.

Coach Bronson:

So why is having a lifestyle with excess ketones, which is just another fuel, all of a sudden? Excess fuel is excess fuel. If you have to put fuel outside of the gas tank in order to hold on to it, then you have too much.

Coach Natalie:

Yes.

Coach Bronson:

That's the bottom line. So we're not trying to have excess ketones. There is a very small percentage of people that need to be in that state for medical purposes that are essential. Nervous system, spinal injury, brain injury, that's very different therapeutic. Ketosis is a medical intervention that has nothing to do with you trying to lose £50. Nothing. What you want is you want something that's actually going to help improve your metabolic function, and that is by being ketogenic. And the difference is, you can be in ketosis if you're ketogenic. But being in ketosis doesn't mean you're ketogenic.

Coach Natalie:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Because once again, being ketogenic is about good.

Coach Natalie:

Put ketones in your body and be in ketosis.

Coach Bronson:

Right.

Coach Natalie:

This does not mean what Bronson is getting ready to explain what ketogenic means. So give them the definition of ketogenic.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah. Being ketogenic is simply your body is producing and utilizing its own fat for.

Coach Natalie:

Fuel, producing and utilizing people that's it not just producing. Because to get to ketogenic, to get there, you will go through ketosis.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Natalie:

Now, the key is, we want that ketosis to happen internally. We don't want to have to put excess ketones in our body for us to go through that to get to the ketogenic.

Coach Bronson:

Right. Or flood ourselves with a bunch of fat that we then convert into ketones because we are overloaded with fatty acids.

Coach Natalie:

We want the body to seek out, find access, and then utilize the ketones. Now, this is a reason why if you've been a person who chases after ketone numbers on a strip or on a blood glucose meter I mean, excuse me, a blood ketone meter or something of that nature. What I always say is what you really want to look for is after you've remained consistent for some time, and this can be different. The time period can be different per person. You want to see those readings go down. So this is usually when everybody starts freaking out, because they're like, I used to get purple, dark purple ketones. I used to get this.

Coach Bronson:

I used to get a one or a two or a three on my ketones. Now I'm only getting a .5.

Coach Natalie:

Right.

Coach Bronson:

Good.

Coach Natalie:

This means your body now knows how to utilize those ketones, so they're not floating around in your blood anymore.

Coach Bronson:

Yes.

Coach Natalie:

That's what we want.

Coach Bronson:

That's what we're looking for. We're not looking for high ketones. So here's the deal. It's going to go up. It's going to go down. This is another reason why measuring ketones, to me, is just mind streaming exhausting. Because it's going to go up. It's going to go down. If you eat some fat, it's going to go up. If you don't eat if you fast a little bit, it might go down. It might go up. Basically, if you're exercising, guess what? Your ketones might go up. Then they might go down again. So the things that you're doing and the way that you're living, how much protein you eat, insulin makes ketones go down. So if you eat a big steak, guess what? Your ketones might go down. In an hour or two.

Coach Natalie:

Another reason why people freak out about the protein, right?

Coach Bronson:

Because it's okay. We don't want to be in ketosis all the time. As long as we are burning fat for fuel, you are good. That's all that you need to know. That's all you need to worry about. I like the car analogy. The car analogy. If you all haven't figured it out by now, the car analogy works for every damn thing when it comes to this stuff. If I go to the gas tank and I put 90 octane gas in my car, do I need to check the exhaust every hour that I'm driving it to see if I'm burning 90 octane gas? No.

Coach Natalie:

You trust that what you put in.

Coach Bronson:

Is what's going to come out. So if I'm not eating crap, if I'm not eating carbs, then why do.

Coach Natalie:

I need to test my coach? And this is why we always say focus on the basics. Because the only time you're going to be neurotic and stressing yourself out over blood ketone readings, blood glucose readings, fasting windows, all the other stuff is because you're trying to get away with something. You are trying to fit carbs some junk ketone labeled foods into your macros, or even if you don't count macros, you're eating all these foods that are net carbs or one carb bread or zero carb bread or whatever, and you're wondering how it's impacting you. And you want to see if you're still in ketosis. It's just because you're trying to get away with something.

Coach Bronson:

Yeah, you're hoping, oh my God, if I do this, I can stay, then I can have it.

Coach Natalie:

Now, if you're not eating that crap, there's nothing to worry about. Look at all this time and energy and stress.

Coach Bronson:

You've taken off your shoulders 125% and.

Coach Natalie:

You get a double whammy there because now you're not stressed mentally or physically. And that's going to improve your health too.

Coach Bronson:

Yes, absolutely. I'll go into this on the ketosis video when I do that, but the whole cortisol thing with, all right, folks, we could talk for a little bit longer, but I feel like if we go any further, it'll just be rambles. Do you have anything you want to leave with that.

Coach Natalie:

Just get honest with yourself. Get real about what are you doing, what are you not doing? What are you trying to justify? Yeah, if you're going down rabbit holes trying to find latching on to concepts, ask yourself why, right? What's behind that? What's the motivation there?

Coach Bronson:

Hopefully this discussion has helped you understand what metabolic flexibility really is, how it works, what matters about it, and can help you think about why you've been worried about it.

Coach Natalie:

If you truly want to be metabolically flexible, get fat adapted.

Coach Bronson:

Get fat adapted, get ketogenic, don't eat crap and exercise prioritize protein. All the same stuff we say all the time, guys. It's so simple and it's so repeatable. You're going to hear, right? It's like, what's the answer? What's the secret sauce? Just do the stuff we've been saying over and over and over again. The basics aren't going to change. The basics aren't going to change. So all right, guys, take it easy. We'll see you until next time. And we still don't have a way to end.

Coach Natalie:

Eat meat, repeat. Me?

Coach Bronson:

And eat meat, repeat. I like that. Eat meat, repeat. Take it easy, guys.

Coach Natalie:

Peace up. You.