Less Glove More Fist

Science Based isn't what you think it is and worrying about it is wasting your time

September 24, 2022 Coaches Bronson and Natalie Season 1 Episode 2
Less Glove More Fist
Science Based isn't what you think it is and worrying about it is wasting your time
Show Notes Transcript

There are a lot of people out there claiming to be "Science-Based" professionals who are using an appeal to authority fallacy to make people think they have all the answers.

You may have gotten into an argument with someone who would only believe your side if there's a paper to back it up. You may be the one who only does what science has "proven" to work.

Let's clear up a few things and hopefully make life a little easier for everyone.

1:32 Science based vs Results based
4:30 Science is years behind effective methods
6:40 The process of scientific studies is long and expensive
8:40 Scientific publications have lost a ton of credibility
11:22 Studies have a micro focus and doesn't apply to the macro application
14:09 The definition of "Science-Based"
16:16 The appeal to authority fallacy
18:50 How to evaluate evidence in the scientific method
21:53 Start trying things and be your own experiment
26:55 Stop using science to justify your actions
28:45 Do you have confirmation bias?
31:50 Science says artificial sweeteners are not harmful
35:40 Confront the challenge
39:42 If it's not broken don't fix it
42:35 What real accountability is about
44:25 Couple's Retreat Info

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[00:14] Coach Natalie: Welcome to the Less Glove morphist Podcast.

[00:17] Coach Bronson: With me, Coach Bronson, and me, Coach Nat, where we peel back the curtains and reveal the truth behind Hot Topics in health and fitness.

[00:24] Coach Natalie: This is Keto Fitness. It life.

[00:26] Coach Bronson: Unfiltered. Welcome back to the West Glove morphist Podcast. This is Coach Bronson and Coach Nat. How are you today, Coach Nat?

[00:35] Coach Natalie: I'm doing great. We just got a good pump.

[00:38] Coach Bronson: We did. We just got a good pump in today for me was I did upper body today I'm doing two days a week, upper body and lower body split because I'm doing the BJJ three days a week. What did you work today?

[00:49] Coach Natalie: Today was leg day.

[00:52] Coach Bronson: All right.

[00:52] Coach Natalie: And it was a struggle bus kind of day, and I almost collapsed in the parking lot afterwards. But we got it done.

[01:01] Coach Bronson: Got it done. Nice. What are we talking about today?

[01:04] Coach Natalie: Today we are tackling quite an interesting topic.

[01:08] Coach Bronson: Okay.

[01:09] Coach Natalie: That could ruffle some feathers.

[01:11] Coach Bronson: No, we don't ruffle feathers around here.

[01:15] Coach Natalie: We are talking about science based evidence.

[01:20] Coach Bronson: Based versus anecdotal anecdotal results.

[01:27] Coach Natalie: Results.

[01:28] Coach Bronson: Results based science versus results. There's a conversation I like, that okay. And this comes up often in the things that we see. I actually had somebody last week based off of something that I posted. They're like, hey, Bronson, you're a science based kind of guy.

[01:45] Coach Natalie: Oh, yeah.

[01:46] Coach Bronson: Can you link some articles and publications that kind of back up what you're saying? I'm kind of like, yeah. Just because I'm a science based guy doesn't mean that there is articles or papers that back up what I'm saying.

[01:59] Coach Natalie: And why do you need that?

[02:01] Coach Bronson: Why would you need that? If this is something that is working and there's evidence in front of your face, it's like the whole conversation is the sky blue? There are literally people out there we.

[02:14] Coach Natalie: Could argue that, right?

[02:15] Coach Bronson: There are literally people out there who, if you didn't have a scientific paper to show that the sky was blue, they wouldn't believe the sky was blue. Like, come on, guys.

[02:23] Coach Natalie: Oh, my goodness. I would say the sky depends on whatever colored lens you're looking through. And that can be said about everything. Everything. Your own perception and your own experience and your own life experiences, what you've been through and what is going to.

[02:50] Coach Bronson: Color your perspective and life view, where you're coming from, if you're a pessimist, if you're an optimist, if you're closed minded, if you're open minded. There's a bunch of things that go into how we look at information and perceive things in our lives outside of that conversation, because we could probably do.

[03:05] Coach Natalie: A whole episode we sure can on.

[03:07] Coach Bronson: The perception reality cycle and how that all works. Yeah. But when we talk about science based and the idea of what that means, I think much like a lot of the things in this space, people use these terms in many different ways. They don't really know what they're saying, yeah. So one person could say I'm a science based, or I'm following the science and another person could say I'm following the science and they both have two completely different things. Or they're coming up to do two different conclusions, or they're meaning two different things. One person could say I'm science based and they mean I only do things if there's a scientific randomized, controlled, blind, double blind study that backs up what I want to do. Another person could say I'm science based because I'm following the information that I've been able to find that is more broad ranging, including anecdotal and results and clinical things that I've seen happen in real life because that's technically part of the scientific process is the actual things that you see happening, not just what comes out of the study because it's broader view. So there's a whole bunch of things to go into. What does science base even mean?

[04:20] Coach Natalie: Right, well, I think okay, what got me thinking about we need to talk about this topic, is that we see a lot of gurus or personalities, influencers, whatever you want to call them out there in the space that call themselves evidence based or science based. And everything they talk about all the time is always about some study or some collection of studies. And if it doesn't have a study, then they just say, oh, that's bunk because it doesn't have a study to back it up. So basically we could be waiting 20, 5100 years or forever and never get a study that shows something. So then, oh, then it must not be possibly beneficial for anyone.

[05:12] Coach Bronson: Right.

[05:12] Coach Natalie: And nobody should ever do it. Yeah, because science hasn't proved it and we have to wait for science to prove it for us to be able to do anything that could benefit us in any way.

[05:22] Coach Bronson: Right. And when we talk about that from that point of view, we should know, I mean, everybody needs to understand that the quote unquote scientific literature is always 10, 15, 20 years behind the actual real life proven evidence.

[05:39] Coach Natalie: Absolutely. And those of us who are living an alternative lifestyle, let's say the low carb, is still an alternative lifestyle, ketogenic carnivore very outside of the traditional paradigm and we wonder why. And this is a topic for another day, but like the medical science has not caught up yet.

[06:01] Coach Bronson: It's starting to get there, but it's.

[06:03] Coach Natalie: Definitely oh my goodness, barely turning a corner and it's certainly not widespread. Right, and it would take many studies and a whole lot more time. First of all, let's talk about the fact that how long does it take for a study to even be published or even get to that stage?

[06:22] Coach Bronson: Well, even to get us to so people can understand this and we're not by no means experts on this, right. Just from what we know, from the people we've talked to, we do know people that have gone through the process of running studies, getting things published and that kind of thing. But from my understanding, if you just think about what does it take to even get a study started?

[06:45] Coach Natalie: Oh, my goodness.

[06:46] Coach Bronson: A good study, like randomized, controlled, completely monitored and managed and tracked and minimize the variables and all the things that are needed. You need money. You need a lot of money because you got to pay for the facilities, pay for the testing, for other people to participate.

[07:05] Coach Natalie: And you need a lot of time.

[07:07] Coach Bronson: And time is a whole another issue. Right. A lot of the studies now where you see particularly for keto, Carnivore, stuff like that, they're six weeks, eight weeks, twelve weeks. Twelve weeks is long in a lot of these studies. What we need is some 1235, 810, 15 years studies. So that's really what we're looking for. There are some longer ones that have come out, but there's nothing really super long right now. But the funding is number one, the minute you say the funding for a study now we come into the question of who's funding the study and if the study is going to provide, which we know right. If the study is going to result in information that is contra, that is going against what the industry, let's say, wants us to have access to, information they want us to have access to, then they're not going to fund it. I can't expect Kellogg's or Eminem or Mars or Coke or Pepsi or any other pharmacy companies. The pharmacy companies are not going to fund studies to test the stuff that we know is going to make them lose business.

[08:18] Coach Natalie: Absolutely. And then if they're funding studies and they don't get the results that they want, we will never see those studies.

[08:26] Coach Bronson: Well, and we know that. Look at the news that came out about the Alzheimer's study from was it 2012 or 2012, something like that. It's been like twelve years now. This all the Alzheimer's study that came out that they found out this year was literally fabricated.

[08:44] Coach Natalie: Wow.

[08:45] Coach Bronson: That this study was considered groundbreaking at the time, I think in the early 20, 10, 20, 12 years, something like that. Groundbreaking Alzheimer's study. This is what we think is the root cause for Alzheimer's and something that we should look into. And then they just found out this year that all of the data was pretty much made up.

[09:05] Coach Natalie: Wow.

[09:06] Coach Bronson: And that for the past twelve years, pretty much 80% of all the Alzheimer's research that has happened has been based on this one study. And it was completely false. So all the money, all the time, all the lives that have been potentially lost because of this falsified information. So the idea and if you Google guys, if you just go out and Google, can you trust science or something like that? There are many people in the scientific community, former editors and publishers of scientific journals, who are coming out now and basically saying, the scientific journal, the scientific literature is basically bought and paid for marketing material for industry today. It is not science anymore. So just outside of what does science base mean outside of all that other kind of stuff, you need to understand that just basing information on scientific literature without an understanding of context, without including clinical information, which is by clinical information, I mean what doctors are saying is working in their practice. What nutritionists are saying are working in their practice. What fitness professionals are saying is working in their practice. That's not anecdotal. That's clinical. And there's a difference. Anecdotal is when you talk to your friend and he's like, hey, I went keto. This is what worked for me. That's anecdotal. When we're talking about professionals in health and wellness and fitness who are saying, these are the specific protocols that I'm using and these are the results that I'm getting that's clinical. That is a critical, critical, critical element that needs to be looked at when we talk about what actually works for people. And that has nothing to do with scientific literature because that stuff is always ahead of the literature.

[11:02] Coach Natalie: We cannot dismiss that information. It's worth nothing because there hasn't been a controlled, double blind study.

[11:13] Coach Bronson: Okay, we're going to just get into everything. The idea of basing things off of a controlled double line study or any of that stuff is think about this in the big picture. In order for a study to be effective, it has to have a very specific focus. So that means it's testing a component of a component of a component of a component of a thing. So you cannot draw a broad ranging conclusion based off of a single study because there are so many variables that have been removed from that study to help improve the accuracy of the information that most of the context has been removed when it comes to bringing that information into your own life. So there's a big disparity there. We're talking about something that's very specific that you're trying to now apply to your entire life. And there's a mismatch there.

[12:11] Coach Natalie: It's apples and let's get under. Okay, let's get into why this is an issue. Why did this become a topic on podcasts, right? And for me, I see people who are struggling to achieve results that they're looking for. And they are going into their googling. They're going into groups. They're going into discussions and discussion boards, and they're asking for science. And they're looking for something that is proven to be the perfect way to do this, that they can now go and implement. And this is going to be a magical result, right?

[13:03] Coach Bronson: Magic bullet. Magic bullet. Magic pill.

[13:07] Coach Natalie: And the truth is, we are all individuals. We have a lot of context going on to our other episode about context. And you cannot take anything, whether it's from a study or whether it's somebody else's experience, and just say, this is going to work for everyone, and I need to do this exactly this particular way. And that's what I've been getting wrong.

[13:31] Coach Bronson: Right.

[13:32] Coach Natalie: And now I just need the perfect way. If somebody can just tell me the proven perfect way to do this, then it's all just going to fall into place.

[13:40] Coach Bronson: Fall into place? Yeah. The idea of looking at a study to know what you should be doing is very misleading. It's not even misleading is the right word. It's a misplaced expectation.

[13:55] Coach Natalie: Yes. There you go.

[13:57] Coach Bronson: Right. Now, because you're looking for, again, something that's very specific, they're testing one specific thing. Okay, I'm just going to just go through something here real quick. I just looked up what is the definition of science based?

[14:15] Coach Natalie: Oh, okay.

[14:16] Coach Bronson: To be considered scientifically based, a research finding. A research finding. That means this is what we understand based on the experiments or information we gathered.

[14:26] Coach Natalie: Yes. So going back to the study piece.

[14:28] Coach Bronson: It must be presented in a way that enables other researchers to reach the same results when they repeat the experiment. Okay. So it's not necessarily science based technically means you followed the process, and if other people follow the same thing, they should get the same result. That's all it means.

[14:45] Coach Natalie: Repeatable it's?

[14:46] Coach Bronson: Repeatable. That's all it means. So it doesn't say anything about the information itself. It's more about the method and the process.

[14:54] Coach Natalie: Okay.

[14:55] Coach Bronson: Okay. So if I say I'm science based, technically, what I'm saying is I'm basing my information on things that I've seen other people do, and I've been able to repeat myself and get the same results. And get the same results. So technically, whether there's a paper or not, because that can be clinical as well. So if me as a nutrition and fitness coach, if I see another fitness and nutrition coach who's using Keto carnivore and Hit training or functional fitness training, and I'm looking at the information, seeing how their results, what results are getting, and I talk to them and say, hey, what's your program? How are you doing this? I want to see if it works for my people. And I do the same thing. I'm science based. It has nothing to do it has nothing to do with a paper. Which is kind of cool, if you think about that.

[15:44] Coach Natalie: Yeah.

[15:47] Coach Bronson: It'S about the methodology. Yes. Which is an interesting way to look at it. So when we think about the arguments of people who are saying, well, if you don't have science to back it up, then we know automatically. I want to say we know automatically. Number one, they don't know what they're talking about. Number two, there's the other aspect that when you were talking earlier, I'm thinking of some specific people out there in the space who magically only ever present the information that matches the things that they preach.

[16:28] Coach Natalie: Right? Of course. Because why would they?

[16:31] Coach Bronson: Right. And this is where I'm going with this is people that push themselves as being science based are essentially charlatans in the idea that they're trying to make themselves sound like more of an expert. Because there's a scientific paper that backs up what they say. It has nothing to do with whether what they're saying works, but because I'm saying this and here's a paper that backs it up, I must know what I'm talking about. You need to listen to me.

[17:08] Coach Natalie: That's an interesting angle and something to consider.

[17:11] Coach Bronson: Right. I'm not a scientist. I don't have a degree. I don't have a PhD.

[17:17] Coach Natalie: Right. You're never going to hear me claim that I'm science based. And very rarely will I ever, ever cite a study on anything that I talk about.

[17:26] Coach Bronson: Absolutely. And I like looking at studies because here's the deal. As a professional in space, I look at the information from studies as a way to help me understand why things work or how things work.

[17:38] Coach Natalie: Right. It doesn't mean that you can't be interested in studies. We both read them. We're interested. Especially when something new comes out revolutionary or leaving us in a new direction. Really. I think the benefit of science is that it should question everything.

[17:56] Coach Bronson: I love he's. It because the second half of science based, the definition of science based is true. Scientific knowledge is public and open to challenge.

[18:08] Coach Natalie: Yes.

[18:09] Coach Bronson: It is held tentatively, subject to change based on contrary evidence.

[18:15] Coach Natalie: Okay. So what I would caution you to ask yourself is, am I operating on confirmation bias?

[18:25] Coach Bronson: Right?

[18:26] Coach Natalie: Like, am I just trying to confirm what I believe?

[18:29] Coach Bronson: Yes.

[18:30] Coach Natalie: And I'm only looking for things that back up what I already believe?

[18:33] Coach Bronson: Yes.

[18:35] Coach Natalie: Or am I actually using science to challenge my own beliefs?

[18:40] Coach Bronson: Okay, what does that mean? What does it mean using science to challenge your own beliefs? I'm thinking big picture. What are all of the things that we could look at?

[18:49] Coach Natalie: Oh, my gosh.

[18:50] Coach Bronson: To look at the whole body. Okay. Because remember, science is about observation of real world events and then understanding why they happen.

[19:00] Coach Natalie: Okay.

[19:01] Coach Bronson: So we can't just look at the work that's been done to understand why it happens and then extrapolate outward. That's going from in to out. We need to start from the out and then bring things in. So from looking at the big picture out, we're looking at what did Bobby say work for him to lose weight or build muscle or get rid of his autoimmune disease? What did Dr. So and So say is working in their clinic? What is current research saying? What is like, all of these things that are happening bring all of that stuff together? What are all these communities of thousands of people around the world who are eating just meat or people that are switching from vegan or vegetarian to being meat eaters and completely changing their lives? All of that stuff is part of the body of evidence that goes into true scientific method. And if we're just looking at the paper, we're missing all this other stuff.

[19:53] Coach Natalie: I love that, right?

[19:56] Coach Bronson: So when we're talking about being science based, I like to say and we talk about this all the time, if you look at the description of this podcast, coach Nat and I are very much more results based. We want to look at things that work. And if you change your mindset to what's going to work for me, then you're going to be a lot more successful in your journey than trying to find a paper that answers all your questions.

[20:33] Coach Natalie: Okay? So you just got to the crux of what I really want to get across here, and this is what I'm doing, moving me forward. I think that's the question you should ask yourself, right? So if you notice that you're digging, you're doing all this digging online to get more information more information. More information. Or going down rabbit holes on any particular topic to try to find the perfect way to do something, are you taking action and are you doing anything to move yourself forward toward the results.

[21:06] Coach Bronson: That you want or you're just confusing yourself?

[21:09] Coach Natalie: It is likely that you are actually self sabotaging by thinking you need more and more and more information before you can get started.

[21:19] Coach Bronson: Bingo.

[21:20] Coach Natalie: He almost choked on his water.

[21:21] Coach Bronson: Bingo. I was trying to talk and drink at the same time. No, that's absolutely I love that. Because you are creating an environment for yourself that is paralysis by analysis.

[21:30] Coach Natalie: Yes.

[21:31] Coach Bronson: So it's not that you don't know what to do. It's that you are.

[21:37] Coach Natalie: Majoring in the.

[21:38] Coach Bronson: Minors and you're looking for more. You're looking for that silver bullet getting so much we see it every day.

[21:43] Coach Natalie: Yes.

[21:43] Coach Bronson: People come into our groups or people contact us. It's like, I'm so confused. I got all this information. It's like, stop looking for information.

[21:50] Coach Natalie: How about trying something?

[21:51] Coach Bronson: How about just try something first? And that brings us to the next thing, right? Just try something. You've got to stop gathering information at some point and start trying things to see what's actually going to work for you.

[22:04] Coach Natalie: So let's talk about how to do that. Right? We're talking about science, right? Applying it to you. Which we say when we talked about doing this episode. We talked about. Okay.

[22:14] Coach Bronson: Well.

[22:15] Coach Natalie: All these people out there that are science based. Evidence based. Influencers and leaders out there. Most of us would not even know who they are and would not be listening to them if they didn't have a personal story of triumph. That they got some kind of incredible result doing this themselves.

[22:34] Coach Bronson: Exactly.

[22:35] Coach Natalie: And many of them started as an N equals one before there were any studies to back up what they did.

[22:41] Coach Bronson: And in some cases, there still aren't studies to back up what they did. And here's the thing to think about with that, is there's no studies at the time they did this. We're talking about people like, I mean, how far back?

[22:50] Coach Natalie: Rob wolf. Wolf, yeah.

[22:53] Coach Bronson: Mark Sisson is another one. Mike Mussels on the list. I say there's a bunch of people oh, my gosh.

[23:02] Coach Natalie: Anyone you know in the Keto space? Dr. Barry.

[23:05] Coach Bronson: Yeah, right. A lot of the doctors. A lot of the doctors literally put their careers on the line yes. Going against the current science.

[23:15] Coach Natalie: And typically it was either themselves or a very close loved one. Like their parent.

[23:20] Coach Bronson: Yeah. Or their patients seeing their patients. How did you do this? Wait a second. Tell me about this. I want to get my other patients on this and things like that. So the idea that you're stuck on following the science, but all these people who are professionals in the science industry are not following the science and being successful, you might want to think about that right. Back to how to actually implement things in the N plus one and being willing to try and experiment with things. What are some things that coach now? What are some things that people can look at to do to help them stop over analyzing and start trying things out?

[24:02] Coach Natalie: Okay, so first and foremost, and we will get into this on another episode, but you have to figure out where you are now. So you have to start taking stock of what am I doing now?

[24:15] Coach Bronson: Wait, does that mean tracking data?

[24:17] Coach Natalie: Yes.

[24:18] Coach Bronson: Oh, my God. Yes. That's a whole other episode, folks. That's coming.

[24:22] Coach Natalie: But if you don't know where you are, you don't even know what to change.

[24:26] Coach Bronson: Right.

[24:27] Coach Natalie: One thing we talked about with these studies in science, you have to control for the variables. So you can't just go and change everything tomorrow and draw any logical conclusions from that because you don't know what works.

[24:46] Coach Bronson: So you mean that if I'm going to try keto for carnivore, I shouldn't go keto? Start intermittent fasting, take Ketones, start working out three days a week and who knows what else on the list. Because all of the things literally we have people come to us that are like, this is what I'm doing. It's like, how long have you been doing? I just started last week. It's like, what? What are you doing now? Like, slow down, people. Because we get into this idea of the more we do, the faster it's going to happen. Right?

[25:22] Coach Natalie: Well, here's a really great example of why we were talking about this topic of getting into the weeds and majoring in the minors too soon. Right? You have people okay, should I do we talked about this on our context discussion. Should I do 80 20? Should I do? High protein. What kind of keto should I do? Well, do you even know what your macros are now?

[25:46] Coach Bronson: Right?

[25:46] Coach Natalie: Do you know how much protein you're eating now? Do you know how much fat you're eating now? Do you know how many carbs you're eating now before you've even gone keto, before you've even gone carnivore? Do you know how much food do you eat in a day? Because if you don't even know where you're starting, it doesn't even matter which method, which way of doing it. You try the most important thing if you haven't given up carbs yet, it's just to cut your freaking carbs out. Let's try that first.

[26:17] Coach Bronson: Sure.

[26:18] Coach Natalie: Right. And you could start with just getting rid of the junk food, honestly, and probably get a great result.

[26:24] Coach Bronson: Absolutely.

[26:26] Coach Natalie: So N equals one. First and foremost, where am I starting and what is the one thing I can change to get a reliable, logical conclusion from my results?

[26:42] Coach Bronson: Something I just thought of is, as we talk about the science based versus results based versus evidence based versus whatever based is, the only time that matters is if you're not focusing on the basics. Yeah, because if you're focusing on the basics, you're trying to get as much protein as possible. You're trying to reduce as many carbs and seed oils we'll add that to the list as possible inflammatory food. You're trying to get as much sleep and as much movement as possible. You don't need science for that. That's the basics.

[27:14] Coach Natalie: Well, I think what really happens is we're looking for this magic bullet because we don't want to do the basics.

[27:22] Coach Bronson: Well. There's also if I can find something that justifies a decision, then I can do that. Which is where we get some of the science that says honey is okay and fruit is okay, and other stuff right there.

[27:40] Coach Natalie: This is the confirmation bias.

[27:42] Coach Bronson: This is a confirmation bias. This is a lack of context because somebody who is maybe metabolically healthy and active and has low body fat and high lean mass and is physically healthy and active and whatever else, technically, they can afford it from a dual perspective, they can get away with that. Now, that doesn't mean that they are optimal because their inflammation is still going to be higher. They're still making the liver do extra work. They're still doing things. They're just metabolically. They're not in a deficit metabolically. So there's no evidence, there's no symptoms at the time currently. That doesn't mean there won't be in the future.

[28:19] Coach Natalie: Or that they're sharing publicly.

[28:21] Coach Bronson: Or that they're sharing publicly. Yes. So understanding that, again, confirmation bias, which leads me to another thing I'm having random thoughts in my head right now, is how do you know if you have confirmation bias?

[28:35] Coach Natalie: That is a difficult thing to diagnose.

[28:38] Coach Bronson: Here's the deal. This is where we go into being aware emotionally. If somebody tells you something that goes against what you think is the science and you get upset about it yes. Then you have confirmation bias.

[28:53] Coach Natalie: If you find yourself arguing in discussion groups yes.

[28:58] Coach Bronson: Arguing not because not actually arguing points of logic or trying to argue from a point of understanding where the other person is coming from or trying to understand how you could be wrong. That's the thing. There's the argument of arguing your point because this is how you understand it. But being open to logic and information that helps you change and come to a different conclusion, that's different. That is healthy discussion.

[29:27] Coach Natalie: Would I argue that that is not an argument?

[29:30] Coach Bronson: That's right. Exactly.

[29:31] Coach Natalie: That's a discussion between the discussion. That's like a debate.

[29:34] Coach Bronson: Okay. An argument. If you're arguing with somebody because you're trying to get them to change their mind cause you know you're right and that's bull crap.

[29:42] Coach Natalie: Yup.

[29:42] Coach Bronson: Okay. Then you might have confirmation bias. We could do a segment. We need to get what's his name, jeff Foxworthy in here. You might have confirmation bias. Yeah, because I'll be honest with you, I think you've done it. I know I've done it.

[29:59] Coach Natalie: Oh, yeah.

[30:00] Coach Bronson: Or I'll read something and my initial reaction is, this is bull crap.

[30:03] Coach Natalie: Yeah.

[30:03] Coach Bronson: And then I'll be like, okay, hold on. Right? Let me kind of look at this and try to understand. And then in many cases, I'll try to get it and I'll get the context and try to do some research on where that person is coming from, what the information is, how they're applying it and everything else. And then I look at it and I go, yeah, that's bullshit. Or I go, Wait a second, maybe there's something I need to look into there to understand a little bit differently or better. Or maybe there's another tool that I can use because I didn't understand that angle of attack from this thing. So you have to look at things with that critical eye of understanding, not defending.

[30:44] Coach Natalie: There you go. I like that. That's a really good distinction to make. And I would encourage you to ask yourself, why am I seeking out this information? Or why am I adamant about this particular thing? Like, what's behind that? Am I trying to justify something? Because a lot of the time we see people arguing for their limitations a lot.

[31:11] Coach Bronson: Oh my God.

[31:12] Coach Natalie: Arguing for keeping carbs in their diet. Because you have to have these for this particular thing and this mechanism. But is it just because you want to eat cake? Because I have a feeling it's really probably has a lot more to do with you want to eat fruit. So now you're looking for something that tells you that you can eat fruit.

[31:34] Coach Bronson: Yes.

[31:34] Coach Natalie: Or the artificial sweeteners arguments are happening all the time.

[31:40] Coach Bronson: All the time.

[31:41] Coach Natalie: Oh my goodness. All of this about why Diet Coke is not a bad thing and why.

[31:47] Coach Bronson: I'm going to interrupt you. That's a really good topic. Because I have people in my life that deal with that. We've had clients that deal with that.

[31:57] Coach Natalie: And I guarantee we're going to get messages about that.

[32:00] Coach Bronson: If you look at the science I e look at the documented papers that are currently. Published, there is almost nothing that says artificial sweeteners are bad for you.

[32:12] Coach Natalie: Right. And you have people arguing for that all the time. All the time. The science says it's fine. The science says it's fine.

[32:19] Coach Bronson: But we know because we both have had clients, that 100% of the time I'm not making this up, guys. 100% of the time, every single client we've ever had, and I'm saying this without even talking to her beforehand, and she's not correct. Okay? 100% of the clients that we have had, when they stop artificial sweeteners, massive difference. Massive difference in their progress, body composition, gut health, how they feel, energy, psychology, the psychology of their relationship with food. All of it. All of it.

[32:59] Coach Natalie: And they always push back at the beginning.

[33:01] Coach Bronson: Yeah. 100%. It's zero calories. It shouldn't make a difference. My gut doesn't do anything with it. Well, yes, it does. And this is one perfect example of where the science has not caught up to the reality.

[33:16] Coach Natalie: And we can either continue to argue for our limitations, which I like to say, if you argue with for your limitations, you get to keep them.

[33:23] Coach Bronson: Yeah.

[33:24] Coach Natalie: And then continue to struggle and not to make progress and go down more and more rabbit holes to see what other hot new thing you can try to get this result, or you can look at the thing that's actually holding you back and challenge yourself to just try doing something different.

[33:42] Coach Bronson: How often is it do we see that that people will argue for their limitations? This is the one thing I'm not going to let go of. And then they spend a bunch of time trying this, and then they try that, and then they try this, and then they try that, and nothing works. And it's like, you know, all you got to do is stop this one thing, this one thing, and you'll take off. And then either they do or they don't. Every time they do, they're like, oh, my God, you just had a client this week.

[34:06] Coach Natalie: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Well, it was everything. I challenged her, really. It was dairy. It was the artificial sweeteners. Those were the big ones, like, the packaged things. And it was like, boy, she viscerally felt it was like, I knew she didn't want to do it, but she was trusting me. And we're trying to get to a whole new level of results she's never had before. She's already relatively lean. She's in a healthy place. So it was like, I have a feeling this is going to make all the difference. Not only does she feel more amazing, she got through a whole new weight on the scale she hasn't seen. She's been struggling to get to, so her body let go of that excess. The inflammation is down. She's feeling much better. Her gut feels much better. It's like night and day in so many ways.

[35:00] Coach Bronson: That's crazy, isn't it?

[35:01] Coach Natalie: All of the biomarkers all the biofeedback is showing us improvements. The small things.

[35:07] Coach Bronson: The small things.

[35:09] Coach Natalie: This is what when Bronson was saying, like, you've got the basics. The basics are going to cover you for most of the stuff, but it's the optimization where you can get into, okay, what can I do to optimize? I've already nailed the macro piece. I've already nailed the food choices and the sleep and the exercise.

[35:30] Coach Bronson: Right. I mean, essentially it's nailing the nutrition going as nutrient dense as possible. It's nailing the exercise, getting some musicians training on a consistent basis, nailing the sleep and then nailing some of the mindset stuff around what you're doing and why you're doing it. If you can get those four fundamental things down, then it's Tweaking. And by Tweaking, in many cases, the first thing to Tweak is to start doing the things you don't want to do. Because you can get a lot done with the basics without really getting outside your comfort zone.

[36:05] Coach Natalie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[36:07] Coach Bronson: It's when you start pushing the boundaries of your comfort zone. That's when things really get fun for us as coaches, because we know you're about to make a breakthrough and you're going to see some crazy success. But that's where you get the challenge of do I face the things that I don't want to do? Or do I look for a scapegoat or red herring and try to do something else that's going to hack me towards success and avoid the thing that I know I really need to be doing?

[36:37] Coach Natalie: Absolutely. I think that's what we see. That's what led us into this conversation. So to wrap it up with a bow, stop looking for science to prove or validate what you're running away from.

[36:56] Coach Bronson: Right. That's when we look at it.

[36:57] Coach Natalie: Yeah, right. Prove something that you can try when there is a low hanging fruit that you are ignoring or avoiding dealing with.

[37:09] Coach Bronson: Yes. And it's really hard because we have to add this disclaimer that we are not scientists, we are not medical professionals. We're not saying that you need to discount any medical professionals advice, any of the science that's out there from a I mean, I'm going to say this. You're probably going to be healthier if you avoid doing anything that a government institution or industry institution is telling you to do. It from a health perspective. But at the same time, legally, we can't recommend any of that stuff. But I will say that when you're looking at the large body of evidence, because evidence is different than science.

[37:55] Coach Natalie: Oh, we didn't talk about that.

[37:56] Coach Bronson: Right. Evidence is the things that you see. Science is based on what we call empirical evidence. That is what you see happen with your eyeballs. So if you're seeing something happen with your eyeballs, you cannot deny that it's happening. Okay. You may not understand why it's happening. That's where science comes in. It helps us understand the why, not the if we're know it works. We know keto works. If you start with the basics, then we can make it. Then we can get you moving in the right direction. And then there's things that we can tweak. But digging into the weeds of I need to understand everything about gluconeogenesis so that I can optimize my intake with this and that macro and time my protein properly. And maybe I do need some carbs, because if I'm in ketosis for too long, I could potentially have hormone issues. Like guy. Chill out. It's not that complicated, okay? Eat meat, lift weights, get sleep. That's about as simple as you can possibly get it. And it does not show me a caveman. Who knew what his thyroid panel looked like?

[39:17] Coach Natalie: Seriously, the question is, how do you feel?

[39:20] Coach Bronson: Yeah. How do you feel? Are you seeing progress? Do you feel better? That's what matters.

[39:27] Coach Natalie: And if you feel great and you're getting the results you want, stop digging.

[39:33] Coach Bronson: Yes. It's a form of hypochondriaism. It's a form of like you're looking for something to be wrong.

[39:43] Coach Natalie: If it ain't broke, stop trying to fix it.

[39:46] Coach Bronson: Exactly.

[39:47] Coach Natalie: So if things are working for you, great, wonderful, that means you found something that works for you. Keep going.

[39:54] Coach Bronson: And if it's not working for you, start with the basics first. Are you doing the bare minimum to make it work?

[40:00] Coach Natalie: What you're currently doing first and doesn't even have to be we'll get into the metrics in another conversation, but it doesn't have to be complicated. Just write down what you're eating. You don't even have to use an app yet or any of that stuff. Just write it down. Get conscious of your nutrition, your movement, your sleep, your lifestyle, your mindset. Just start writing stuff down and get clear on what is my life look like right now? What am I doing right now?

[40:29] Coach Bronson: Yeah. How many times have you worked with a client or I've worked with a client or we got people in the challenge that I'm running. And one of the things I get as feedback is often I didn't realize how much I was eating right. I realized when I was eating, I was eating at 09:00. I didn't realize they didn't realize. They didn't realize. And that's where a lot of the progress comes from, is just from them starting to keep track of things honestly.

[40:53] Coach Natalie: Just onboarding new clients and going through because we both start with an assessment, we need to understand where they are. So we have a bunch of questions, and through us asking clients questions on the front end about what they're currently doing and what life is currently like for them, they tend to get breakthroughs just answering the questions, getting more awareness of where they're starting from.

[41:18] Coach Bronson: Right.

[41:18] Coach Natalie: So you can do that on your own before you even go to a coach. But the second piece of advice would be seek out a professional that you trust.

[41:28] Coach Bronson: I love you. You're right. I was going to say that. I was so going to bring up you need a coach sneak out of she reads my mind. She's like looks into my eyeballs and reads what's going on in my brain. Now she's blushing. She can't talk.

[41:46] Coach Natalie: I just had a moment here.

[41:50] Coach Bronson: Finish your sentence. What are you saying? You should get a professional to help you.

[41:53] Coach Natalie: Well, you need to find a professional that you feel you can trust. Right. Because you need to be able to be honest with this person and if it's a person that causes you anxiety because a lot of the time people think that to get a coach they need this like drill sergeant, like accountability and somebody to whip them into shape. And the thing is if you're afraid to go to that coach and tell them when you fall that coach can't do anything for you.

[42:19] Coach Bronson: Can I make a little segue into the accountability thing? We talked about this a couple of days ago.

[42:24] Coach Natalie: Sure.

[42:24] Coach Bronson: And I want everyone to understand whether it's for yourself, whether you have an accountability partner or whether you have a coach. Accountability is not about getting in trouble for doing something wrong. Accountability is having somebody who is responsible to help you understand why you made the decisions you made. That is accountability. Accountability is about being responsible, responsible for your actions and understanding what your thought processes are, what your emotions are, what your triggers are and what your reactions to those triggers are. That is accountability. It's not about I don't want to do this or I'm going to do this. I don't want to write it down because they may get mad at me or they may find out. Who cares if they find out? It's not about getting in trouble. You're an adult. You can do whatever the hell you want for that.

[43:20] Coach Natalie: If that's your motivation then eventually you will start hiding from your coach as well.

[43:26] Coach Bronson: Exactly.

[43:26] Coach Natalie: Out of shame.

[43:27] Coach Bronson: Accountability is about taking responsibility for your actions and understanding why you made the action the choice that you did. That is what an accountability part is for. So if you have a coach and they are not helping you understand what your thought processes are and what your emotional triggers are, you need to find a coach that's going to help you do that. If you have an accountability partner and you're accountable for each other by just checking in, hey, how are you doing? That's great. That's more of a support partner, not an accountability partner.

[43:59] Coach Natalie: You need someone to do an episode on how to find a good coach, what to look for in a coach there you go. Or within your relationship, your life partner or an accountability buddy. We could do a whole episode.

[44:18] Coach Bronson: That's something. Another segue. That's something that we'll be talking about on a retreat.

[44:23] Coach Natalie: Did you all know we have a couple's retreat coming out?

[44:27] Coach Bronson: It's going to be fun, guys. It's going to be fun now that we're dating this episode because we're going to talk about it now. It's in November and a year from now we may have another Jeep, but it won't be the same one we're talking about. But we should talk about it because we're expecting it to be successful and we'll have other ones, right?

[44:43] Coach Natalie: We will.

[44:44] Coach Bronson: Keto fit life couple. We can retreat.

[44:48] Coach Natalie: This is the inaugural retreat. The first time we're doing this only for couples. This time doesn't mean we may not do something for singles in the future. We keep getting that question right. But this is for couples only. It's a very small group. We have a house on the beach in Destin, Florida in November. In November. November 10 through the 13th. Ketofitlifecouple.com is where you can get the information. We have three spots left and basically we're just going to be in a house with some couples, building community, building relationships, helping one another. Learn how to better support your partner and ask for support from your partner on this journey, how to support yourself in your journey and basically forge a stronger bond through the goals that you're setting, whether or not you're doing the exact same thing or doing different things.

[45:52] Coach Bronson: Yeah. And there will be some practical stuff. We'll do some workshops. We'll do some cooking and things like that and grocery shopping and some fitness stuff. And obviously there will be plenty of time. There will be some mini vacation stuff. There's going to be some free time and open time to go as a couple and go spend some time together, get away on the beach, get away, do some things. We're not planning on having it be like jampacked every day.

[46:14] Coach Natalie: Getaway reset.

[46:17] Coach Bronson: It's a little bit of get some time with us, go through some things, but then also have some time together to kind of just get away from everything else and just be with you as a couple.

[46:27] Coach Natalie: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[46:29] Coach Bronson: Because we're going to be doing some of that getting away together.

[46:31] Coach Natalie: We definitely will.

[46:34] Coach Bronson: Awesome. Do we got anything you want to leave with before we drop this one off?

[46:37] Coach Natalie: I think that's a perfect ending there. Yeah. Don't get caught in the weeds and continue to seek answers. Try something. Be your own. N equals one.

[46:51] Coach Bronson: Just because there's a research paper that says x, y, or z doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean that you should need to follow it.

[46:59] Coach Natalie: Right. Nine times out of ten, there is no perfect way to do something for everyone.

[47:06] Coach Bronson: Yeah.

[47:07] Coach Natalie: Context matters.

[47:08] Coach Bronson: Context matters again. Yes. Absolutely. All right, guys. Appreciate it. We'll see you on the next episode. Have fun and bye. Keto on.

[47:15] Coach Natalie: Peace out.