Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) versus 80/20 High Fat and the secret to success on Keto

PSMF and 80/20 are hot topics in the keto community right now. Everyone is doing one or the other. How come some people are saying PSMF is working and 80/20 isn't but other people are saying the opposite?

• How do you know which one is going to work for you?
• What exactly are they?
• How do you do either of them correctly?

Listen in and we'll tell you all the secrets you need to know!

1:03 How this podcast is different and why we started it
6:41 What is context and why does it matter?
10:40 How to ask better questions
13:42 Should you do High Fat Keto or PSMF?
17:08 What is PSMF and how to do it
24:21 The impact of metabolic adaptation
26:34 Our experience with high protein and low fat
29:30 Who should use PSMF
33:00 What is High Fat Keto and how to do it
35:50 Context applied to information sources 
40:40 How to use Ketosis properly
42:20 Using Ketones to help adaptation
46:55 Who should use High Fat Keto
50:25 Tracking your BMR
52:20 The difference between PSMF and High Fat Keto
54:00 Stop using ratios and percentages

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Transcript

[00:14] Nat: Welcome to the Less Glove More Fist Podcast.

[00:17] Bronson: With me, Coach Bronson and me, Coach Natt, where we peel back the curtains and reveal the truth behind Hot Topics in health and fitness.

[00:24] Nat: This is Keto Fitness at Life Unfiltered.

[00:30] Bronson: What's going on, guys? Coach Bronson here and Coach Nat. Hi, coach. Nat. How are you today?

[00:33] Nat: I'm doing good. How are you?

[00:35] Bronson: I'm doing great. This is the first time we're doing this. It's going to be probably really awkward as we try to figure out what we're doing.

[00:42] Nat: It won't be awkward. It's us.

[00:45] Bronson: This is the welcome to the Keto FitLife filtered podcast. We still got to get used to saying that name. This is our first episode and we basically, both of us have very professional personas as coaches on our different platforms. Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, all the different places we are. And we try to appeal to a very broad audience and sometimes that means we have to filter some of the things that we say, consider how things will be received, and also we have to make sure that there's a lot of context in what we're putting in. And that's going to be the topic of our discussion today, is how context plays into everything. But we decided to do why did we decide to do this podcast?

[01:41] Nat: CoJ because sitting around the house and chit chatting with each other, we tend to rant.

[01:50] Bronson: No, not at.

[01:53] Nat: We let off steam with one another about things that burn us up that we see out there in the space. And then we riff and it can go on for a while, but the energy is so good and we get hype and then we get ideas and then content flows from there. But we thought it would be really cool to basically take what we do at home and bring it to the masses so you all can get a little taste of our passion for what we talk about and the unfiltered raw discussion.

[02:36] Bronson: So I was talking to the guy that's going to be doing Jack Heel, the guy that's going to be doing our intro. So the voice you heard on the first before we actually started talking, that's Jack and he asked for like, how would you describe what you want the podcast to be?

[02:51] Nat: Right?

[02:51] Bronson: So I gave him a bunch of different a little couple of blurbs and bullets and things and I said, really? I said four words, less glove, more fist. And he was like, oh my God, I love that.

[03:06] Nat: Okay, yeah.

[03:08] Bronson: So there may be some things that you guys are not used to hearing from us in a little bit of the emotion because we do get fired up things we care a lot about. Making sure that you guys are getting information that is going to help and not confuse. That is going to help you move forward and not hold you back because you're trying something that is just plain old not going to frickin work. And then there's also in that something that we do filter often in our normal daily content is language and things like that. So if there's some F bombs or other things that drop out of our mouths printal advisory, explicit language yeah. Then just understand that's us kind of being a little bit more relaxed and unfiltered.

[04:04] Nat: This is us behind the scenes.

[04:05] Bronson: Behind the scenes. How do we really feel?

[04:09] Nat: People stop being polite, start getting real.

[04:14] Bronson: Yeah. Realistic, here's the thing. It's not that we're not authentic in our other platforms, because we're still very much talking about things that we're passionate about. We're just trying to deliver it in a way that is a little bit more accessible to more people.

[04:29] Nat: That's a beautiful way of saying we also don't want to step on toes so we can be a little careful about the way when we're presenting content in an organized fashion.

[04:40] Bronson: There you go.

[04:44] Nat: Pre contemplated, pre recorded.

[04:47] Bronson: I think we got ahead.

[04:48] Nat: We rip out a little bit more when we're live on our lives, but in our prerecorded content that we're planning in advance, we don't call people out. We don't do the clickbait responses to what we're seeing out there. But at home, it drives us a wall, and we vent to one another about it. But we were doing that the other night, and Bronson said, hey, I have a crazy idea, because this never happened. What if we shared this? What's happening between us right now is shared this with the world. I think that, honestly, a lot of what we say to each other needs to be said. Not just here somewhere.

[05:39] Bronson: Yeah. And that was it. Literally. We're sitting on the couch, which often will be at the end of the day, we'll be sitting on the couch across from each other. She'll be looking at client feedback or something like that, and something will pop up, and she'll be like, oh, my God, this is just so frustrating. When I see people get stuck in a loop or stuck in this limiting belief, or they got this information and it's not what they need to be listening to. They need to be doing this. And I do the same thing. I'll talk about a conversation I had with somebody or a post. I saw that somebody started that.

[06:12] Nat: Bronson spends so much honestly, he spends more time than I do in the groups, but we both get into the groups, and we see things in groups that just if people are getting it wrong, there's just a lot of misinformation being spread and confusing people, and I see it with my clients getting confused, and then I get upset about it.

[06:37] Bronson: Well, let's talk about that, because I don't know if misinformation is most of the time, there are times where information is flat out wrong. That is not how it works.

[06:46] Nat: Right? So the topic of today's talk was from this exactly right. It's not necessarily wrong information or bad information on its own. It's just taken out of context and it is used widespread and promoted that everyone should be doing X, Y, or Z. And we understand we have the educational background to understand how to read the context of things that are put out in the space.

[07:22] Bronson: Right.

[07:23] Nat: Whether it's a study or a book that somebody wrote or protocol. We understand the nuance and the mechanisms behind that and why these things are working and when someone should or should not be applying them to their own context. And I think that's a passion of both of ours that as coaches, we want to help other people figure out what's going to work best for them and considering them as a whole person in every piece of the puzzle with them. That's why we love coaching, and that's what coaching is.

[07:59] Bronson: Yeah, coaching is helping people apply context. And context works in two ways. There's the context of the well, it's actually kind of three ways. There's the context of the person delivering the message. Where are they coming from? What is their background? Who are they used to working with? What are the goals and the things that they usually try to work towards? Right? And that's different if you have a doctor who specializes in metabolic health versus a doctor who specializes in weight loss, versus a family practitioner, versus a heart surgeon versus a former chiropractor. I mean, everybody's got different backgrounds, so they're going to give different information because they're all working towards different goals. So context from the source is number one. The second one is the information itself. What is the context of the information? Where did it come from? How was it derived and how should it be applied? Yes, the third one, yes or second one? The third one is you. As the person receiving the information. Where are you? What are your goals? What's your passport? What are the things you're currently working through? We can get into mindset, we can get into lifestyle routine. What are you ready, willing, and able to do? There's so many different things that go into the individual context that most people just look at information about, oh, I should do that and have no concept of how it's actually going to affect their lives. So there's three levels of context and at least two of those in any of the three, pick two. You're probably not applying the right context to some part of that.

[09:44] Nat: Absolutely. And I think something to consider is when you are going online and you're jumping into forums or Facebook groups discussions and people post questions with zero context.

[10:00] Bronson: Zero context, or they're not even asking real questions, that's a whole other and.

[10:05] Nat: Then everyone in the comments is giving suggestions right now. Most of the people in the comments giving suggestions without asking it for any further context are not professionals and are not someone that you should even be listening to.

[10:22] Bronson: And if they are professionals and they're not asking for context, they shouldn't they're not professionals.

[10:26] Nat: They're not professionals, though. So you, as an individual seeking advice or guidance for what you specifically are going through, the best thing you can do in this case is provide as much context as you can about your situation when you ask questions. So at least whoever is on the other end of that question, even if it isn't a discussion group, that's nothing more than just your peers, other people who are struggling through this journey with you. First of all, remember who's in that group with you, and that you may not get good advice because they're struggling too. But then also consider the more context you give them, the better. Whoever they are, they can actually answer and give you something that's helpful.

[11:21] Bronson: Or if they don't have an answer, at least with context, that gives them more information that they can look for. Maybe they heard or read or watch something else that they go, oh, this matches the information that was just given. An example is, we see what are some of the questions that we see all the time? I've been keto for six months, and I'm 50 years old. How much protein should I have?

[11:47] Nat: Right?

[11:50] Bronson: Answer that question.

[11:52] Nat: The only people who will answer that question are people taking the blanket statements that they've heard out there and applying it to everyone and saying, everyone should do this, which there's a red flag right there. Whenever you see anyone out there saying everyone should do XYZ, probably not a good idea. There's very little that every single person in the world can do the exact same way and get results with.

[12:22] Bronson: Yes, and we can talk about concepts and methodologies because you could say that everyone should be looking for when it comes to nutrition, the most nutrient dense, the most bioavailable, and the most satiated foods, that's a concept that is not a tool.

[12:38] Nat: The only person I ever hear talking about that is bronson. Most of the time, you're not going to hear people saying that. You're going to hear people saying you should eat x amount of protein, or you should eat this ratio of fat to protein. And that's something that's very specific.

[12:56] Bronson: It is. And where we go from there is, what is the context? Okay, you're 60 years old. You've been keto for six months. How much do you weigh? What's your body fat percentage? How active are you? What are your goals? Where are your triangles? What have you done in the past? There's seven or eight different questions that need to be asked in order to give an appropriate response. Guidelines are great, but we don't know what that person's already done. Maybe every guideline that they receive based off that minimal set of information is all the stuff they've already tried, and none of it's worked. We don't know that nobody asks.

[13:33] Nat: Well, okay. So, you know, the thing that really got me thinking about this topic was the debate out there right? Now that it's a debate, but it's not even a debate. I see two separate camps, two very extreme camps, and everybody's always asking which of these two camps they should be in.

[13:59] Bronson: Right.

[14:00] Nat: And one is the high fat, low.

[14:04] Bronson: Protein ketogenic group, method, protocol, whatever.

[14:09] Nat: And one is the high protein, low fat PSMs style of doing keto. These two things, if you've heard people talking about the 80 20 fat to protein, and you've heard people talking about, you don't need more than 50 grams of protein ever. Excuse me? You should never have more than 50 grams of fat. Meaning you need to be low fat all the time. Lean proteins don't add any fat to anything. And then you have the other group that's all fat all the time. Drink your butter, don't eat any real meat.

[14:44] Bronson: Yeah.

[14:46] Nat: These two camps are the extreme.

[14:51] Bronson: Nobody needs to live in any way, either of those. No.

[14:56] Nat: Oh, my gosh.

[14:58] Bronson: If you could see our faces right now, guys, we see these discussions and we hear people all the time. Let's talk about context. Okay.

[15:12] Nat: We kept seeing this, and we were like, nobody understands how to apply things to their own context. And they want to jump from and the worst part is jumping from one extreme to another. I've been doing 80 20 and it's not working. So I'm cutting all the fat out.

[15:26] Bronson: And I'm going all PSMF.

[15:28] Nat: Or I've been doing really high protein and no fat, and I can't digest anything, and I can't have a bowel movement, and now I'm going to go.

[15:34] Bronson: 80 20 all the way. Yeah. And there's no in between. And people are living and this is the issue people are living in the extremes.

[15:42] Nat: Yes.

[15:43] Bronson: And not finding what actually works. There's a big difference.

[15:48] Nat: And there's this aversion to wanting to live anywhere in the middle.

[15:53] Bronson: Right. Well, because everyone is the cool thing.

[15:56] Nat: Yeah.

[15:57] Bronson: Right. The new thing is PSMF. And that's apparently now getting old because now everybody has the way to go everywhere. Right. Trends will keep you in the same spot. I e not going anywhere. You cannot base your success on trends. It just doesn't work. The basics will win every single freaking time. I said freaking.

[16:29] Nat: You did. You're still watering down. I guess we haven't gotten that real here.

[16:36] Bronson: Oh, my God.

[16:37] Nat: I haven't dropped enough bomb yet either.

[16:39] Bronson: No, it'll take us some time.

[16:41] Nat: I think we know we're on.

[16:42] Bronson: Yeah, right. We'll be like, four episodes in and then one of us will slip.

[16:46] Nat: Yeah.

[16:52] Bronson: Let's talk about each of those extremes. So, number one, I think the thing with the issue with both of them is I think many people don't understand either one. So let's break both of them down.

[17:05] Nat: I love that. Okay. Okay.

[17:06] Bronson: So let's talk about the PSMF. I like how you talk about PSMF. The biggest thing that we see is that people do it too much. Yes. So let's talk about PSMF first, and then we can talk about the 80 20.

[17:23] Nat: Okay? So first of all, as we said, PSMF is an extreme protocol. It is an extremely low calorie, low energy fuel calories, as Bronson calls it. Very low in fuel energy calories, which means you are eating practically all protein and very little fat. Whatever fat comes with that protein, whatever carbs come with that protein. We're talking chicken and egg whites and shrimp.

[17:57] Bronson: Lots of egg whites and shrimp.

[17:59] Nat: Yeah. Not a very appetizing, not enjoyable unless.

[18:03] Bronson: You make a PSMF. Everything that's not real food with meat merge that just because they don't have calories. Yeah, because that doesn't affect okay, so.

[18:18] Nat: There'S a lot of legs to this.

[18:20] Bronson: There's a lot of legs. That's a good way to say it.

[18:24] Nat: When you just brought up, is this is dangerous for disordered eating?

[18:29] Bronson: Yes.

[18:30] Nat: This could certainly become a living on very nutrient poor foods that are still hyper palatable, because they're hyper creating these baked goods that are mimicking highly palatable junk foods. Now, they're high protein, but that's all they're high in.

[18:52] Bronson: They're not high in nutrients. That's a huge thing people need to understand.

[18:55] Nat: Yes.

[18:58] Bronson: Doing foods that are one bake. Okay. And normally I say the more processed you go, the more the less nutrient dense you get. Okay. I'm going to say the more fake you go, the more you try to replicate good tasting food with food that is not whole and natural, the further away from nutrition you get. So PSMF is not just a low calorie, not just a low energy, but it is low nutrients.

[19:33] Nat: And that's the biggest issue there. And when you think about it, the leaner you go in your protein sources, the leaner you go in your meats, for instance, now we're getting into the chicken and the turkey and the egg.

[19:45] Bronson: Whites, but you have a warranty and.

[19:46] Nat: The sugar, it's because it is the least nutrientdense animal food that you can consume. And when you're saying, oh, fat is evil, essentially, when you're doing this PSMF, then you're taking all of the nutrient dense options off the table.

[20:05] Bronson: Well, see, and here's the part that is it's like the truth within the lie, okay? Because the idea of managing fuel to improve body composition is a fact.

[20:20] Nat: It's solid.

[20:21] Bronson: That's what happens. Taking that to the extreme of all of your food just becomes a macro and not nutrition.

[20:30] Nat: No, micros.

[20:34] Bronson: We're just looking at micros. And now we're looking at our food purely for fat loss, purely for body composition, not for health. And you guys know how I feel about focusing on fat loss of body composition. Focus on health and metabolic function every time, which means nutrition first.

[20:55] Nat: And you can do both at the same time. If you're not being extreme with it.

[20:59] Bronson: Exactly.

[21:00] Nat: The other issue with this is, like most of us know about the Minnesota starvation study, which was like they could never do it again today, right? So they starved these men, and these men started dreaming about food, plotting and scheming. It is creating a disordered relationship with food. When you're removing all of the fuel that is fueling your brain and your body, it's cognitive as well as physiological. So you're impairing yourself cognitively. Now you're developing this. No wonder on PSMF you get obsessed with recreating baked goods because now you're becoming obsessed with food because your body is starving. It's a starvation diet. It is a starvation diet, pure and simple. Nothing complicated about that. Here's the way Bronson asked me at the beginning. How do you do it effectively and appropriately? Okay, first of all, not everyone should be doing this. Not anyone needs to do this.

[22:03] Bronson: Thank you. I was going to say it is never necessarily PSMF is a tool that people are using. That does not mean it is a tool anyone should be using.

[22:17] Nat: Absolutely. Amen. Amen. You can use it very carefully and strategically in certain circumstances.

[22:27] Bronson: It is a fine line. However, back in the edge.

[22:31] Nat: I would not recommend it for anyone, ever.

[22:35] Bronson: Anybody.

[22:36] Nat: No.

[22:36] Bronson: It's a quick way to lose fat. It's a quick way to get into disorder eating. It's a quick way to start yourself.

[22:47] Nat: Guess what happens when you lose it fast? You put it on faster, and then.

[22:53] Bronson: You think that's the only way to do it. And then you get stuck into looking for other ways to do it fast. And then you get into a whole cycle of now there's no balance.

[23:04] Nat: Yes, we're getting into it. We just pushed him over the edge a little bit. The biggest danger with PSMF when you are now doing it too frequently, which I would say is any more than.

[23:19] Bronson: Once a week, because if you do it more, it's going to make you this more faster.

[23:23] Nat: Well, that's the thing, is people latch onto this and it's okay. Well, the effective way to do it is one to two days a week, tops. Not consecutively, not two days in a row, not a whole week at a time, every single day, once or twice a week, separated by at least one, preferably two or three days of your regular normal caloric deficit or maintenance or wherever you are in your plan, which hopefully you have a good plan. But most people are just jumping around on the Internet.

[24:01] Bronson: This is the best fit within a larger scale program and method. And most people just eat whatever the crap they want, and then they PSMF three days in a row.

[24:10] Nat: And the second they see this out there, this becomes a lifestyle. So the problem with this becoming a lifestyle, the problem with doing this consistently and consecutively over multiple days and weeks at a time is your metabolism is going to adapt. You are starving yourself. You are purposely over starving yourself. I suppose. What am I talking about? You have too deep of a deficit. You're dropping your calories. This is nothing different than the old ones. The old 500 calories or 1000 calories a day diet or the HCG diet. Similar kind of concept. You're just starving yourself. So what happens when you are forcing your body to live on less calories over an extended period of time? Your body says, oh, we're going to die. If our metabolism stays strong and roaring and it's going well, we have this great metabolic rate, and then all of a sudden, we're cutting the supply. The metabolic rate has to slow down to keep you alive. It's a survival mechanism.

[25:18] Bronson: Yeah. And here's the thing, particularly if you're overdoing it, okay? Your body doesn't want to burn amino acids for fuel. You guys have heard me talk about fuel calories versus functional calories. When you're doing PSMF, particularly if you're overdoing it, your body is going to get to a point where it doesn't have a choice. When you start burning amino acids for fuel, everything about your health goes the opposite direction that it needs to be going, period.

[25:45] Nat: Yes. You're now catabolizing your lean tissue. Your lean tissue is eating itself.

[25:51] Bronson: The body is eating itself. Your metabolism is going the wrong direction. All of your other functions, your hormones, your immune system, digestives, everything.

[25:59] Nat: We're not talking about autophagy, folks. We're not talking about the good kind of cell regeneration. We're talking about starvation.

[26:07] Bronson: Yeah.

[26:09] Nat: Okay, so PSMF is off the table.

[26:12] Bronson: Yeah. For us, at least. I cannot think of anyone I've ever worked with where I would say, you should probably do PSM.

[26:22] Nat: No, I've never recommended it.

[26:23] Bronson: Not even bodybuilders. Not even people who are trying to get to 5% body fat per stage. There's no need for that.

[26:30] Nat: I have personal experience with this, folks. This was okay. Now PSMF is getting hot and exciting. But this was seven years ago. My first prep. The original the OG Lacdonald Rapid Fat Loss Handbook. He went into detail about PSMF. I was able to read about all of the precautions and who should not do it and when you shouldn't do it, how to do it right. And I like many of you, I do it more. I'm not going to be ready. This is my very first show. I had no idea what I was supposed to look like coming into a show. I did not have a coach yet. It was just me doing, oh, my gosh. All the groups I'm in with, first time competitors, and nobody has a coach, and they're all just trying to piece together things to do. That's where I was. I was like, oh, I'm going to try this PSM thing because I don't think I'm going to be ready for stage. I did it for six days in a row. I hated life. I hated life. I snapped at everyone I loved. I cursed my family out. The day of the show, I was starving. Not only that, but I couldn't digest anything. My bowel movements stopped completely. It was a complete and total mess. Wreck.

[27:45] Bronson: Yeah. And I'll say I don't know if I would call it PSMF, but I did something similar to the protocol with higher protein, much lower fat. I think I was down to 70, 75 grams of fat for me at the time. And I did that for months.

[28:01] Nat: That's really low for you.

[28:03] Bronson: For months. Okay. Because I thought the same thing again. This is the truth within a lie. If you manage your fuel consumption, you can manage your body composition. So the lower the fat goes, the more fat I use my body. I'll get lean. I got lean as hell, right? I was fucking miserable. Here we go, folks. Absolutely miserable.

[28:31] Nat: Miserable to be around.

[28:33] Bronson: Yeah. Even though I'm eating a crap ton of protein, I'm eating food. I'm feeling full physically, but mentally, all I could do was think of food. And I'm thinking to myself, after a couple of months of this, I'm thinking to myself, the whole reason I went carnivore was so that I wouldn't be obsessed with food. What am I doing wrong? Not the whole reason, but one of the main reasons was, like, I see these people, and they're always just worried about what they're eating. I'm like, I just want to freaking eat and be chill with food. I've got other things to worry about.

[29:04] Nat: And that is the best thing about the store.

[29:07] Bronson: It was a complete opposite when you do it, right?

[29:09] Nat: Yeah.

[29:09] Bronson: All I could think about was food. So we're speaking from experience, guys. Not only do we know a little bit about nutrition and fitness, and we think PSMF just on the information that we have available, but we've kind of lived it, and we know that it's not a place that you want to be. No, you don't need it.

[29:27] Nat: Not at all. Absolutely.

[29:28] Bronson: So let's talk about the other side of it. The 80 20. All the fats.

[29:31] Nat: Oh, my gosh.

[29:32] Bronson: All the fats. Okay, what's the context around that? Okay, so we're talking about context. Context for using PSMF. There is none.

[29:44] Nat: Well, okay, let's entertain it. Right?

[29:49] Bronson: Okay. All right.

[29:50] Nat: Context for using PSI.

[29:52] Bronson: Devil's advocate. If you wanted to, why would you want to?

[29:55] Nat: Okay. Some of the things that Lyle McDonald pointed out in the book was essentially the two times he would say, okay, try it. One, you have a lot of weight to lose for a weight loss surgery, you need to be ready for the date of your surgery. It has to happen fast. They will not clear you for surgery until you've lost a significant it's not.

[30:18] Bronson: Like something you can like, I can reschedule for three months from now. It's like, no, you need to get this ASAP.

[30:23] Nat: And at that point. If you're at the point where you're getting weight loss surgery, it's likely that you are morbidly obese. You're in a situation where you have a lot of excess body fat on your body for your body to live on.

[30:37] Bronson: Right.

[30:38] Nat: So it's not going to threaten your life.

[30:43] Bronson: This is an interesting point that you're bringing up about PSMF because it's going to apply in the next conversation.

[30:50] Nat: Oh, beautiful. I love it.

[30:51] Bronson: You know where I'm going with that, right?

[30:52] Nat: I think so.

[30:54] Bronson: Cut out the fat to lose fat really fast.

[30:57] Nat: Yeah.

[30:59] Bronson: If you need to. Surgery. Something like that.

[31:02] Nat: Yes. Now that's the carb fuel and you're just rabbit. Starvation is what they called it. Right. And you can't once again subsist on that for a long period of time. So once again, in his handbook, he talked about the duration. This is not months. Even in that situation, this is not months. I believe it was the same thing that Maria Emerick talks about a couple of days a week. And I think his was like, if you're going to do it consecutively, you could do it for five days, six days, and then take a break, and then you can go back to it. But still, this is not even in that lifestyle. It is not a lifestyle. It is not something to be doing consecutively over weeks and months. The other time he said to do it or okay, do it with caution because he had, of course, a whole bunch of disclaimers in there is competitive athletes with a show date who are not going to be ready and are competing at the top of your sport. So now you've already got skin in the game. You've been in this for you know what you're doing.

[32:10] Bronson: You're getting paid by somebody to do.

[32:13] Nat: This, and you have a coach who's guiding you through this to do it properly. And you have a date on the calendar. You've got a lot of money invested into it. You probably have sponsors, everything's writing on this, and you did not do your prep correctly.

[32:31] Bronson: Yeah, it's an oops I even in.

[32:34] Nat: That situation, this is not something that athletes should even be relying on. This is an emergency situation.

[32:41] Bronson: Yeah.

[32:42] Nat: So those are the only two times. Really?

[32:44] Bronson: All right, well and I don't think anyone listening to this falls in either of those falls in either of those two categories. Okay. So we covered PSNF fairly well, I think.

[32:56] Nat: Now, I think the perfect bridge into the 8020 conversation is something that you shared the other day oh, no. When people are saying, increasing my fat made me have the results I wasn't having on high protein. What is your response to that, Coach Bronson?

[33:18] Bronson: What did I say now? I'm thinking more about specifically answering that question. What did I say before?

[33:23] Nat: You said in context that person was not eating enough yeah. For their goals.

[33:31] Bronson: Yeah. So when we hear. I'm thinking about the posts that I've seen the last week by some.

[33:43] Nat: When in general, you see people saying, go high fat. If you're not losing weight, eat more fat.

[33:51] Bronson: Well, it's not just fat, it's eating more in general, is what I think that response was more just. I started eating more and now I'm leaner it's like, what?

[34:00] Nat: Yeah, okay, we do this a lot with fat. It's more fat. Eat more fat. Go eat a stick of butter. For those of us who are educated in nutrition, yes. It's a face palm moment, because it's like we know that there is no mechanism in your body. We're ingesting an additional 200 calories, 400 calories, 800 calories purely from fat every day is going to make you lose fat. It's not going to happen that way.

[34:33] Bronson: And maybe after we talk about the 80 20, we can talk about refeeds because there is some stuff there. But again, in context, intermittent doesn't happen every day. It's not a lifestyle. It is a tool.

[34:48] Nat: That's a whole different thing.

[34:50] Bronson: And it's not for everyone. Not everyone needs to do it.

[34:52] Nat: It's not the refeed that's making you lose the fat in those circumstances when you put in a refeed and you lose weight after you put in a refeed, it's not the calories from the refeed that made that happen. There's another mechanism happening there, and we can talk about that.

[35:12] Bronson: Yeah. So the 80 20, eating a lot of fat in order to lose fat comes from a lot of different places. I mean, that's the traditional. Everyone thinks Keto is high fat because we got to be in Ketosis. Okay?

[35:27] Nat: Okay. So let's first start by you can be in Ketosis and not lose body fat, and you can lose body fat.

[35:39] Bronson: And not be in Keto. Yes, Mr. Rebob. So the idea, and I think it comes from a good place, and this is the other thing, both PSMF and the 8020 and having going high fat, getting in Ketosis and staying in Ketosis, those are both coming from good places, I think. I really think, honestly, that where the sources of information for these types of protocols are coming from are good intentions. So we're not talking about anything about the sources, we're talking about the information in context. Okay. We want you to understand how to apply it, how it affects real life. Because that's how it affects real life.

[36:18] Nat: Absolutely.

[36:19] Bronson: So the high fat, being in Ketosis, taking Ketones, all that kind of stuff, the idea is improve mitochondrial performance, which will improve how your metabolism performs and help you burn body fat. It's really simple. The more healthier mitochondria are, the less unhealthy you are.

[36:42] Nat: And the healthier you are, the better your whole body function and the more.

[36:47] Bronson: Your body composition will change, etc. Now, there's a couple of things about that that on the surface, that sounds frigging great. That's awesome. We're going to go to my car analogy okay, here we go. What that's the equivalent of doing is putting the right fuel in your car. Your car is going to function better if you put the right gas in your car. If you have a sports car and you're putting the cheapest freaking octane gas that you can put in it, that car is not going to perform well.

[37:23] Nat: Not long term.

[37:24] Bronson: Not long term. Right. It's going to get all gunky. It's going to have a bunch of crap in there. You're going to take it to the mechanic and he's going to like, dude, you're putting 80 octane. You need to put 97 in here. Let's go. What are you doing? Right? And then he's going to clean it all out for you. You're going to put the right fuel in there, and your car is going to be like a whole new car for a while. He didn't do anything to the car.

[37:46] Nat: Right.

[37:48] Bronson: You just started putting the right fuel.

[37:49] Nat: In, which is a big piece of the puzzle.

[37:52] Bronson: It's a big piece. You need to have the right fuel. Now, here's what happens, though. At some point in time, if you do 8020, you're going to see some improvement. You're going to see some your mitochondria is going to improve their health. You're going to see more energy. You're going to see some fat loss. Initially, you're going to see some of the benefits, because that's just how your body works. You're working off of cleaner fuel, so you're less inflammation, less oxidative stress, better recovery, more energy, less symptoms of inflammation. So if you have psoriasis or gut issues, all these things will start to go away.

[38:30] Nat: Yes.

[38:30] Bronson: People come to keto, you're still going to be at an above average level of those same issues because you are still over consuming fuel.

[38:41] Nat: Yeah.

[38:42] Bronson: Okay. I want you guys to think about this, okay?

[38:45] Nat: I just thought of something with your car analogy.

[38:47] Bronson: Yeah.

[38:48] Nat: I mean, do we just keep overflowing the gas tank?

[38:51] Bronson: Exactly. Right?

[38:52] Nat: Can we stand there and just let the gas just run out of the car?

[38:55] Bronson: Right.

[38:55] Nat: Why would we do that?

[38:57] Bronson: Exactly. And here's the thing. Many people have been doing that with the wrong gas.

[39:01] Nat: Yes.

[39:02] Bronson: And now they're doing it with the right gas.

[39:04] Nat: That's right. Before keto, most of us were over consuming sugar.

[39:08] Bronson: Right? So we had all this extra glucose in the blood, which is unhealthy and causes all the problems. Well, guess what, folks? If you overconfidence excess ketones in the blood, long term chronic condition of excess ketones is not healthy either.

[39:24] Nat: It may not do the exact same thing that the back had fueled.

[39:27] Bronson: It's more insidious, but thyroid issues, testosterone issues, sex binding. I always say this wrong. Whatever. There's a couple of other issues that happen when we're in ketosis all the time. It's not intended to be.

[39:53] Nat: Yeah.

[39:54] Bronson: And that's where we talk about being ketogenic versus being in ketosis. So in case anyone's wondering when we're talking about being in Ketosis and why this is a problem. The definition of ketosis. You ready for this, guys? It's really simple. Excess ketones in the blood. That's it. That is all it is, okay? Zero three milli moles. And guess what? There's no magic difference between 0324. It doesn't change the fact that our body is utilizing fat. That's what we want. That's what ketogenic is. We want to be ketogenic. We don't need to be in Ketosis, right?

[40:38] Nat: And most people who are coming from an insulin resistant place need to get their body to learn how to utilize fat for fuel.

[40:46] Bronson: Right?

[40:47] Nat: That is the key.

[40:48] Bronson: And getting in Ketosis, getting those excess Ketones in there basically force feeding your body fatty acids so that it can be like, I don't have a choice. I have to learn how to do this for a period of time is absolutely fine.

[41:05] Nat: Yeah, it's necessary.

[41:06] Bronson: But over time.

[41:10] Nat: Right? And it's only an issue if you're over consuming it. It's not an issue if you're eating the appropriate amount of fuel for your body's needs. And this is the whole key of what we talk about not going to extremes. You need enough to fuel your hormones, to fuel your brain, to make sure that you are in optimal health and wellness. You don't want to under consume fuel so that you're struggling. Your body is struggling to run all of its processes. You don't need to top off the gas tank every time you've driven a mile down the road, right?

[41:49] Bronson: When you go to the store, you don't need to stop at the you filled up your tank. You go to the store. You don't need to fill up your tank again before you get home.

[41:55] Nat: Right?

[41:55] Bronson: It doesn't make sense. And here's another thing to think about. You can become fat adapted without being in Ketosis, right? So we're not even talking about just living your life, but adding Ketones to your initial start of your journey, the start of your fat adaptation, the start of you changing into this new lifestyle is beneficial.

[42:19] Nat: It can make the transition smoother, because.

[42:22] Bronson: What you're doing, essentially, is you are being Ketogenic means that your body is pulling fat out of your out of post tissue, converting it into Ketones, and then burning the Ketones. Okay? That process doesn't work well for you right now, okay? Ingesting Ketones allows your body to skip the conversion step and go straight to burning Ketones.

[42:49] Nat: Boom.

[42:49] Bronson: Okay?

[42:50] Nat: It's like giving yourself an energy shot.

[42:55] Bronson: Yeah. It's like giving yourself a head start on the process. Okay, so here's the deal, though. It makes the transition easier. That doesn't mean it's how you have to stay, okay? And here's the thing. In some cases, I have people who I just say, look, dude, just stop eating carbs and you'll be fine. Increase your electrolytes. The electrolytes is the biggest thing. I would say that the idea that ingesting ketones. To get into ketosis to help you transition, improve mitochondrial health is a I want to stop short of saying fallacy because it is a thing, but it's an, in many cases, unnecessary step.

[43:47] Nat: It's a Band Aid.

[43:48] Bronson: It's a Band Aid. That could be a way to say it. Now, here's the coverage for the application with the source. Look at the source of this idea, current idea. The 80 20. Where that's coming from? The focus from that context, the sources context is getting people out of the danger zone as fast as possible. Okay. And I've talked and had conversations, and I'm dealing with people who have been ketogenic or have been trying to go they've cut up carbs. They haven't produced a ketone in three weeks because they are so metabolically unhealthy that even though they haven't had carbs, their body is so unfamiliar with being ketogenic that they just won't make ketones. So they have to produce. They have to ingest ketones in order for their body to start healing itself.

[44:44] Nat: Right. Clarify what you mean by ingesting ketones. Are you talking about an exogenous ketone supplement?

[44:56] Bronson: Supplements.

[44:57] Nat: Okay.

[44:58] Bronson: Yeah.

[44:58] Nat: So you're not talking about dietary fat?

[45:00] Bronson: No, I'm talking about Ketones.

[45:02] Nat: Thank you. Okay. Because there's two sides of this coin.

[45:04] Bronson: Correct. But it won't be any different. That's a whole other thing, because then.

[45:07] Nat: That is one of them. But what I see out there, mostly when people are talking about 80 20, they're just talking about eating a shit ton of fat and barely eating any protein. And I just saw one today. It was how do you all do this? I'm guzzling ghee, and I'm not eating a real food.

[45:30] Bronson: Right.

[45:31] Nat: I can barely eat any whole piece of anything.

[45:34] Bronson: Correct.

[45:35] Nat: Because the protein is, quote unquote, too high.

[45:38] Bronson: And I'll be honest with you guys, there are often when I'm in conversations with people I've been interviews recently where people are talking about this and answering questions for people. Because I have a lot of respect for the source of where this is coming from. I have a lot of respect. I mean, we might as well say it. I love Dr. Boss. She is fucking amazing. She's one of her favorite people ever. I wish I could live next door to her and just hang out with her all the time.

[46:03] Nat: We're going to try to make that happen. Right?

[46:08] Bronson: But there is when I'm talking to people because I don't want to come off as I'm against Dr. Bahas. I don't think she knows her stomach. She's one of the smartest people.

[46:17] Nat: Oh, my God.

[46:17] Bronson: And her clinical practice, she's helping thousands.

[46:21] Nat: Oh, my gosh.

[46:22] Bronson: I love it. I do think that there is context where she is so specifically focused on literally I sat down with her at Keto Con. We talked for almost 2 hours. Sitting on a bench outside and just going through all this stuff. It was amazing. She's a wonderful person, but she is literally coming from a place where she's helping the people who are in the worst condition.

[46:44] Nat: Yes. And this is the context I try to bring to my clients when I get this question from my clients. My clients are not dr. Boss's demographics.

[46:54] Bronson: Exactly.

[46:54] Nat: They are not who she's working with. I'm working with women who want to change their body composition, change their body shape, lose body fat and put on muscle. And that protocol is not a body composition body recomposition protocol.

[47:13] Bronson: No. It is a medical intervention.

[47:16] Nat: Yes.

[47:17] Bronson: Here's where I was going in interviews and talking with people. People asked me about it like, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I've got this immune order, I've got this, I got that. Okay, if you are not so far metabolically unsound that you can be ketogenic without exogenous ketones, then you don't need exogenous ketones. You don't need high fat. Okay, now it's not helping you.

[47:45] Nat: Right, sorry.

[47:47] Bronson: Being ketogenic, letting your body produce its own ketones is what you need to be doing.

[47:55] Nat: Now, how about what's the difference between exogenous ketones and dietary fat?

[48:02] Bronson: What is it?

[48:03] Nat: Tell us.

[48:03] Bronson: What's the secret?

[48:06] Nat: Well, when you're talking about 80 20, you can do it without exogenous cheese.

[48:11] Bronson: You just eat high fat.

[48:12] Nat: Right. You eat high fat. However, as Bronson explained earlier, when you're eating the high fat, it has to be so this is a step in the right direction. Let's say you start out your body is not producing any ketones. You're not getting into nutritional ketosis. Your body is not getting into a state of ketosis. You use the exogenous ketones at the beginning to get ketones into your body. So your body starts recognizing that as fuel. What should then be the next step is your body starts to learn how to produce its own ketones from dietary fat and body fat. Now, when you are ingesting 80% well.

[48:55] Bronson: There'S an oh, something else just popped my head.

[48:57] Nat: We'll talk about OK, I might be going to just say 80%. When you're ingesting more dietary fat than what your body needs for fuel, or that your body can readily convert into fuel, it will be stored as body fat.

[49:16] Bronson: Yes.

[49:16] Nat: Just like excess carbs will be stored as body fat.

[49:21] Bronson: Same thing.

[49:21] Nat: So this seems to be a misconception in this space, as if this fat you put in your body is only going to be burned. No, it can be stored.

[49:30] Bronson: Well, and here's the double as sort of that. You're also reducing protein.

[49:35] Nat: Yes.

[49:35] Bronson: Which means you're reducing protein. Thermothermic effect you're reducing muscle protein synthesis.

[49:40] Nat: Yeah.

[49:40] Bronson: You're reducing your body's metabolic function.

[49:46] Nat: Because.

[49:48] Bronson: Things are happening in your body.

[49:50] Nat: What drives your metabolic rate?

[49:51] Bronson: Protein and lean mass? Lean mass, muscle drives metabolism.

[49:56] Nat: Yes.

[49:56] Bronson: So if you are not eating enough protein, we can talk about the other stuff about lean mass. But if you're not eating enough protein to support a healthy metabolism, then you are not going to benefit from any let's say you could benefit from extra fuel because you have a good metabolism. You're dropping your metabolic rate. And this is the thing. Here's what I want.

[50:20] Nat: Everybody doing anything we talked about with PSMF.

[50:23] Bronson: Exactly. That's what I'm doing with this. Exactly.

[50:26] Nat: I love you.

[50:27] Bronson: Okay? So this is what I want you guys to do. If you're PSMF and you're doing it more than you should be, if you're 80 20 and you're doing it more than you should be, I'll just say that get on a scale that can give you your BMR and track your BMR. If your BMR is going down, you are not doing what you need to be doing to improve your quality of life.

[50:54] Nat: Yes. And here's the other piece that we always say. Whatever you're doing to lose the weight, you're going to have to keep doing to keep the weight off. So if you want to live on PSMF or 80 20, in both cases, you're not eating quality, nutrient dense foods. Because let's be real. One, you're either eating you're eating franken foods that you're creating for egg whites or you're eating butter with no real nutrients.

[51:28] Bronson: Nutrients in fats. But here's the thing, and here's something else that I did some research on recently that I want to say before I forget. Is there's a big misconception that there's a lot of nutrients in fat.

[51:40] Nat: I know.

[51:41] Bronson: Okay. Fat holds on to toxins in our body. It does not hold nutrients in the food that we eat. So if you think you're getting a lot of nutrition from fat, you're not. You are getting fat that can be used to help your body digest soluble vitamins. Vitamins from the meat, vitamin coming from the fat.

[52:07] Nat: Right. Coming from the whole food.

[52:10] Bronson: Here's the thing. So, again, correlate to PSMF, it is the differences. Right? PSMF is low calorie, low nutrition, and 80 20 is high calorie, low nutrition.

[52:29] Nat: It's true. It really is. Because first of all, if you have the fats without the vitamins, you can't get the vitamins, right? If you have the protein without the fat, you don't get the vitamins in.

[52:42] Bronson: Those foods, and you're getting proteins that aren't real nutritious to begin with.

[52:46] Nat: That's what I mean. They're not coming with those vitamins and minerals. So, yeah, it's either way, you're cutting the nutrition out of it and you will end up malnourished.

[52:59] Bronson: Exactly.

[53:00] Nat: Either with too much fuel and too much body fat on your body, putting on more body fat, or you're starving the body fat off of you along with muscle, because it's very similar to fasting, despite what you might hear about it being muscle sparing or protein sparing.

[53:20] Bronson: Don't even give me all the whole freaking protein sparing thing. Everything is freaking protein sparing.

[53:25] Nat: Yes. Any nutrient, any macronutrient is protein sparing.

[53:32] Bronson: All of it. Everything you eat is protein sparing, people.

[53:35] Nat: Yeah. So this whole idea of PSMF, just even the title of it drives me crazy.

[53:41] Bronson: Yeah, well, it's protein spare because you're eating protein. You're eating spare protein.

[53:49] Nat: Too. That's spare protein, too. But you need to have the protein with the fat in order to in the proper now, we don't use ratios with our clients.

[54:02] Bronson: You are so in my head. That was what I wanted to talk about earlier.

[54:07] Nat: We talked about okay, well, then what's the perfect ratio?

[54:11] Bronson: The whole 8020 thing, right? Stop thinking about going back to the card analogy, okay?

[54:16] Nat: Yeah.

[54:16] Bronson: If you're looking at your nutrition with percentages, if you're looking at nutrition with percentages, you're doing it wrong, because again, there's no context to those percentages. Percentage of what? How many calories, how much fuel, how much protein? What am I doing? What's my goal? It's just 80% of what you need to eat has to be fat. Okay? What the hell is that? How much do I eat?

[54:42] Nat: Most of the confusion out there, that's what I'm seeing. It's like, what does this look like? How do I know?

[54:47] Bronson: Exactly. So here's a little tip, guys. When you go to the mechanic and tell him you need to do a tune up, you don't tell him, I need 80% oil or 80% gas and 20% fuel. He's going to look at you like, what the hell are you talking about? You go in and the mechanic puts in what the car needs. And the amount of oil you put in the car has nothing to do with how much gas you put in the car. They are separate because they are used completely.

[55:21] Nat: Oh my God, I love that.

[55:24] Bronson: Okay, that's how you need to fuel your body and give your body the things it needs. Figure out how much fuel energy you need. How many fuel calories do I need? And I do this with what I call the maximum energy threshold. Okay? I test on myself. Be okay with your own experimentation, folks. I test on myself. If I eat 100, and I know this because I've done the testing over about four or five weeks, if I eat about 170 to 175 grams of fat every day, I will maintain my body fat. I won't gain fat. I won't lose fat. I won't gain fat. If I go to 180 or 185, I will start to put on fat. If I go to 160 to 165 or lower, then I will start to lose fat.

[56:19] Nat: You mean you actually test by like, ten, 510 grams at a time?

[56:25] Bronson: Only five or 10 grams at a time.

[56:28] Nat: You're not like cutting your fats in half and then doubling them to test it out?

[56:32] Bronson: No. The concept this is why taking time and not trying to rust the process is important and not jumping from one.

[56:41] Nat: Extreme to another extremes. And while you're putting increasing your fat or decreasing your fat, do you also cut your protein in half?

[56:50] Bronson: No. Do you touch my protein? What if you're looking at body composition, if you're looking at trying to manage your fuel, your fat on your body. Because everyone's loose fat, right?

[57:04] Nat: Yes.

[57:04] Bronson: The first thing you'll have to start with is give yourself enough protein to support your metabolic function.

[57:10] Nat: We both start with protein with our clients.

[57:12] Bronson: Start with protein first. Okay.

[57:15] Nat: And not a ratio.

[57:16] Bronson: General rule of thumb that I like to use is 1 gram/lb of lean.

[57:20] Nat: Mass, and I love 1 gram/lb of body weight. Make it nice and simple.

[57:25] Bronson: Which is in many cases better, because it's probably more and more. Protein is always better than less.

[57:33] Nat: It's never bad.

[57:34] Bronson: Don't ever worry about overeating protein.

[57:39] Nat: On glucose neogenesis.

[57:40] Bronson: Right.

[57:41] Nat: And now you don't have to fear it.

[57:42] Bronson: Right. Okay. So we had a base for protein. We know what we're doing for protein. I can leave my protein where it is. I don't change my protein.

[57:51] Nat: Grams, people.

[57:52] Bronson: Okay? Focus on grams. It has nothing to do I don't adjust my protein based on how much freaking fat.

[57:58] Nat: No.

[57:58] Bronson: Because I'm not looking at total calories. I'm not looking at percentages.

[58:01] Nat: I'm not looking at how do you do an experiment?

[58:05] Bronson: Slowly.

[58:06] Nat: You change one variable at a time.

[58:09] Bronson: Oh, my God.

[58:10] Nat: You don't just change everything. And then now you have no idea what's actually working.

[58:15] Bronson: Right.

[58:15] Nat: That's my other pet peeve. I see with people who are saying, oh, I was doing high protein and then I switched to high fat. Now everything's better. It's like, how do we know what even worked there? Because you changed multiple things at the same time.

[58:32] Bronson: Yeah. So ratios or percentages, guys, basically, to say don't do it that way gives your body what it needs. Your protein intake has nothing to do with your fuel intake. They don't need to be married together.

[58:49] Nat: About this at length. In my group, for women only, sorry, guys, you'll have to go over to Coach Bronson. His group has both. But in my group, I do map my ladies, too. You do? Hey, we have a lot of the same ladies.

[59:04] Bronson: Yeah, right?

[59:05] Nat: In my group, I do master classes every Monday night, and we do different topics. And I did a whole protein master class, a whole fat master class, a whole carbs master class, macros master classes. So you can actually go in there and see, okay, how do I actually calculate what is correct for me? And I explain how not to rely on calculators and how to use your own body and actually learn what you need. Not relying on some app or some online calculator to tell you better than you can tell yourself. And Bronson has done extensive YouTube videos.

[59:41] Bronson: Yeah, it's all there.

[59:43] Nat: So you can go to our resources to find out how to do this for you so that you're not going to extremes. But bottom line, don't jump on these extremes just because you're hearing about it and everybody's talking about it. It sounds good.

[59:56] Bronson: No matter what your goal is. If the ultimate vision for your life is just living better. Living longer. And living more physically free.

[01:00:08] Nat: Fully present in your life. Able to show up in your life for the people that you love for yourself. To fully experience life.

[01:00:16] Bronson: Then the only thing you need to do is kind of I hate to say it this way. But ride the middle. Find your happy medium that you can sustain that's going to move you forward. And the faster you try to go, the more off the rail you're going to get.

[01:00:33] Nat: Yes. Harder it's going to be to maintain it. Like we said, you're going to have to continue doing whatever you did to get there to stay there. So ask yourself honestly, am I enjoying this process? Because if you're not, you're not going to keep the results at all. Right, cool.

[01:00:53] Bronson: Well, thanks for listening, guys. That's a riff. We're at an hour and 29 seconds.

[01:00:59] Nat: And that was like, nothing.

[01:01:00] Bronson: Yeah, we could go on forever. So hopefully you like this one. We got more coming. And send us your ideas. Yes, send us your ideas. We'd love to know some things that you guys may have questions on or we want to know how we really feel about something, anything confusing you or.

[01:01:17] Nat: Anything pissing you off in the space, and you want to know what we think about it.

[01:01:22] Bronson: Yeah. The only thing that we do want to make sure we stay away from is we are not going to there are people out there we are not.

[01:01:29] Nat: Dragging anybody through the light here.

[01:01:31] Bronson: There are people out there already who are who their mission in life is to debunk and to call people out on stuff. That is not what we want to do. We want to provide information that is going to help you understand and start learning how to be your own filter that you can apply information to, to help yourself.

[01:01:50] Nat: Putting through the confusion.

[01:01:52] Bronson: That's what this is. Cool.

[01:01:54] Nat: Not being controversial just to be controversial.

[01:01:57] Bronson: No, we're being controversial to help educate yes, there's a difference.

[01:02:01] Nat: And enlightened enlightenment and elevate.

[01:02:03] Bronson: We want to teach you guys how to fish. We don't want to be your fisherman.